What really happened at PyCon 2013 • Hacker News Board

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#71

Post by jusben1369 » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:16 PM UTC

dutchbrit wrote: post #63

ma2rten wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without overgeneralizing too much, Europe does not have the same culture of political correctness as the US does. If someone makes a joke people get offended less quickly. In this case people would just think of the jokers as immature and move on. The only exception I can think of is concerning the holocaust. EDIT: Anyway, I can recommend anyone to live in another culture for some time in their life. First you will f…

When I was working in San Fran (I'm British - live in The Netherlands), the amount of times my colleagues told me, "Sam you're not very PC!" when I made a random funny comment, I always told them, "I know, I'm more of a Mac guy". They weren't offended by my comments I think, but maybe more shocked? I remember an incident whilst we were walking to lunch, a guy came out of a parking lot with squealing tires... which ma…

Well you must understand that what's acceptable is a constantly moving narrative and it moves at different speeds in different cultures. In general humor that works based on demeaning a subset so that the larger majority can laugh at its expense is something that's (slowly) dying. After all, in your initial comment, all your doing is saying "Let me insult this boorish driver by comparing him to a menstruating woman! We can all have a laugh at that right?"

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#72

Post by quaunaut » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:18 PM UTC

mamoswined wrote: post #69

"The PyCon Code of Conduct was tested twice that I know of, and it worked well." No. Imagine if PyCon had a reasonable code of conduct instead of this "Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks...In particular, exhibitors should not use sexualized images, activities, or other material. Booth staff (including volunteers) should not use sexualized clothing/uniforms/costume…

I think you're conflating purposeful use of sex as a selling point with being sex positive.

These are vastly not the same thing.

One of them gets in the way of the message, gets in the way of discussion, and furthermore DOES make some people highly uncomfortable. Sure, some of those people may be sex negative. But many, many more are probably just rather annoyed at being treated like they're some buffoon who is going to flock to any booth with some tits on it.

Furthermore, not everyone wants to live quite so loudly. When you're standing at a booth with booth babes at it, you can't help but feel the eyes on you of other, nearby attendees. What if they're genuinely interested in what the product at the booth is- but suddenly they're put into the uncomfortable position of feeling like people might mistake what they're doing for something less seemly?

Perhaps it's a bit much to keep those kinds of jokes out of the talks, for the sake of culture. Then again? If it gets in more programmers, to not have that kind of content there, then they should stand by it.

(And one thing I might add: It's possible to be sex positive without wanting to be so public about it, and still being annoyed with its use, sometimes.)

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#73

Post by maw » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:21 PM UTC

ma2rten wrote: post #25

_delirium wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting point. I don't have any real basis to generalize, but I have been in a number of situations where business people think that tech people are too politically correct. Coming from a general view that tech isn't really a role model in that category to begin with, that was surprising to encounter. My limited time in Europe suggests that European culture on the whole is less attentive on this subject…

Without overgeneralizing too much, Europe does not have the same culture of political correctness as the US does. If someone makes a joke people get offended less quickly. In this case people would just think of the jokers as immature and move on. The only exception I can think of is concerning the holocaust. EDIT: Anyway, I can recommend anyone to live in another culture for some time in their life. First you will f…

Anyway, I can recommend anyone to live in another culture for some time [...] if you look deep enough [...] you will understand that neither your culture nor theirs is right.

Sort of. You'll learn a lot about a different culture and you'll learn a lot about the one you were raised in. You also will learn that, in some ways, neither your culture nor the new one is right, that in other areas the new culture is better, and in still others yours is.

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#74

Post by tatsuke95 » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:30 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #4

Thank you for posting this. I wasn't at PyCon 2013, but I really wish the discussion would get back to the fact that 99% of what happens when technical people get together is positive and cool. It's really sad that the ridiculous 1% gets so much attention. I actually don't think technology people are that bad, not as a class. Most types of ambitious male business people are a lot more vulgar and perverse than the tec…

>"programmers swear slightly more than average and some are socially awkward"

I agree, but it will be interesting to watch this trend shift over time. There was a time in the not-so-distant past when if you were a computer guy, you were a "geek". Computers were for "geeks", which meant at least one of your parents was a "geek" to involve you with computers as a child. And, generally, "geeks" may be awkward socially, but are pretty normal, easy-going people (obviously generalizing here, but I also consider myself part of this group). You can see this represented in the pop-culture of the past 30 years.

But that stigma is definitely disappearing, if it hasn't disappeared already. What will the place look like when the would-be Alpha-males of the financial world (which has been gutted as a career) go to the next best place to make a killing, where the money flows like water? Is it already happening?

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#75

Post by mistercow » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:33 PM UTC

mamoswined wrote: post #69

"The PyCon Code of Conduct was tested twice that I know of, and it worked well." No. Imagine if PyCon had a reasonable code of conduct instead of this "Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks...In particular, exhibitors should not use sexualized images, activities, or other material. Booth staff (including volunteers) should not use sexualized clothing/uniforms/costume…

I find it difficult to accept that Adria Richards would have acted differently depending on the PyCon code of conduct. She had her own agenda, and it had nothing to do with sexism, decency, or respecting PyCon's rules.

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#76

Post by mamoswined » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:54 PM UTC

hurfdurferson wrote: post #70

mamoswined wrote: post #69

"The PyCon Code of Conduct was tested twice that I know of, and it worked well." No. Imagine if PyCon had a reasonable code of conduct instead of this "Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks...In particular, exhibitors should not use sexualized images, activities, or other material. Booth staff (including volunteers) should not use sexualized clothing/uniforms/costume…

A professional tech conference shouldn't have a code of conduct banning sex talk which, by the way, is completely irrelevant to technology? Just because you, as a woman, don't have a problem with it then no other woman is allowed to have a problem with it? Nice. Hey ladies, mamoswined ain't faded. Sexism is OVER.

Irrelevant to technology? I don't think so. Let's ban everything some people think is irrelevant to technology that might offend someone.

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#77

Post by mamoswined » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:56 PM UTC

quaunaut wrote: post #72

mamoswined wrote: post #69

"The PyCon Code of Conduct was tested twice that I know of, and it worked well." No. Imagine if PyCon had a reasonable code of conduct instead of this "Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks...In particular, exhibitors should not use sexualized images, activities, or other material. Booth staff (including volunteers) should not use sexualized clothing/uniforms/costume…

I think you're conflating purposeful use of sex as a selling point with being sex positive. These are vastly not the same thing. One of them gets in the way of the message, gets in the way of discussion, and furthermore DOES make some people highly uncomfortable. Sure, some of those people may be sex negative. But many, many more are probably just rather annoyed at being treated like they're some buffoon who is going…

As the Amanda Blum piece pointed out, jokes like that are common among women as well.

I would encourage people who are offended by booth babes to contact that company that hired them, rather than lobby for highly subjective code of conduct regulations.

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#78

Post by hack_edu » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 3:06 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #42

ma2rten wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without overgeneralizing too much, Europe does not have the same culture of political correctness as the US does. If someone makes a joke people get offended less quickly. In this case people would just think of the jokers as immature and move on. The only exception I can think of is concerning the holocaust. EDIT: Anyway, I can recommend anyone to live in another culture for some time in their life. First you will f…

Living and working in China (and Europe before that), I can confirm this. Sexism and racism are even completely different affairs outside of the states (more so in Asia than Europe), I'm reminded of that every morning by the design of the toothpaste tube [1] that my wife (innocently, she's Chinese) bought for us to use, which would probably get me arrested in the states if I accidentally packed it. [1] http://en.wiki…

Oh come on. Of course that won't get you arrested. You must not be aware of the American cult of Free Speech. Speaking out and being an insensitive asshole is just that, nothing more. It's your actions that determine criminality. Unlike China sometimes, right? ;)

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#79

Post by Cushman » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 3:10 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #51

_delirium wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an American who lives in Denmark, and I agree, but I'm not sure it is people getting offended less quickly in general, versus on specific subjects. There are plenty of ideas that Danes consider to be completely crazy, not really debatable in polite company. For example, suggesting that abortion should be illegal, which is a mainstream position in the USA, is such a crazy-far-right position in Denmark that you cou…

I'm a Romanian. > suggesting that abortion should be illegal, which is a mainstream position in the USA, is such a crazy-far-right position in Denmark Personally I think Americans are spoiled. In Romania under Ceausescu (so before 1989) abortions were illegal. Hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of women (in a country with a population of less than 19 millions) ended up doing illegal abortions under unhealthy,…

Perhaps you are not aware-- that is precisely the same situation as in the United States until Roe v. Wade in 1973. The phenomenon you're describing is pretty common knowledge in our left-wing political circles; on the right, it is deliberately ignored.

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#80

Post by guizzy » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 3:28 PM UTC

gbog wrote: post #45

_delirium wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an American who lives in Denmark, and I agree, but I'm not sure it is people getting offended less quickly in general, versus on specific subjects. There are plenty of ideas that Danes consider to be completely crazy, not really debatable in polite company. For example, suggesting that abortion should be illegal, which is a mainstream position in the USA, is such a crazy-far-right position in Denmark that you cou…

I don't know if you are US citizen or from other American continent citizenship, but I, as a Frenchman, had the same impression, reverted, with fellow Quebequois boys. When we were casually talking between us about girls, they had a kind of transgression excitement that I did not understand. When asking, they told me they kinda weren't allowed to even think this way in their countries, let alone talking about it. For…

Interesting. As a Quebecois, I can attest to the fact that we often seem castrated on sexual subjects, and europeans are seen as more casual. Quebecois girls are often seen as "easy prey" to europeans, as they are not used to be around men who are being openly seductive. Before you gloat, though, we also hear horror stories of europeans (especially mediterraneans) who are unable to respect women, so I suppose there is probably a healthy middle-ground somewhere between the two.

As for sexual perversions being worse where sex is considered a sin, that makes a lot of sense. Japan would be a great example: genitals are censored, yet they make some of the weirdest most perverse porn one can think of.