Earlier quoted context omitted.
"She overreacted as did the man's employer, and she has not shown any remorse." The problem is that people are attributing to her certain actions that she was not involved in. She didn't fire the guy; the employer did, based on his interpretation of the actions. If calling attention to potential misogyny results in a witch-hunt or in victim-blaming, the underlying problems won't be addressed. lizzard ( https://news.y…
>If calling attention to potential misogyny results in a witch-hunt or in victim-blaming, the underlying problems won't be addressed. What misogyny? From what I understand, they made a joke about the word dongle in a gender-specific way. Does a play on words about your gender's anatomy really equal misogyny? Maybe some people need to learn what misogyny actually means.
PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
371–380 of 387 posts
Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
#372Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is really nothing to be gained in those "rage fests". And this whole incident clearly shows that. One bad decision after another escalating the situation. When it's over there won't be anything gained but only destroyed. So far we have two people without a job and two companies with a tainted reputation.
I'm still holding out some hope that we'll be able to get to a reasonable middle ground. All parties gainfully employed again. Coming together to show more empathy and restraint about creating hostile environments, public shaming, and rushing to judgment. In a way, since so many people acted so badly, it should be easier for everyone to apologize and de-escalate while saving face.
Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
#373Earlier quoted context omitted.
(Your point stands, but it is at least interesting that DEFCON apparently removed that policy, AFAICT.)
can't find anything newer than this https://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-20/dc-20-press.html "July 26 – 29th, 2012" [...] "Photography/video without explicit permission is forbidden."
> For good or bad, the DefCon policy of no pictures/video is gone. So don't be surprised if people randomly take your picture... Maybe you'll get lucky and they'll put you on their facebook.
-- http://defcon.stotan.org/faq/rules.htm
> Then there was a policy change. (Last year?) that pretty much said, "cameras are okay anywhere at Defcon" though there were disagreements on how much was included with "everywhere at Defcon" such as CTF players, room, and screens.
> Yea it was changed last year, but I still told everyone at 101 NOT to take pictures without permission (ie: While DefCon Policy say's this, you may want to do this) And I probably will do it again, because it's a good rule to have. The "Policy" may say that pictures can be taken anywhere at anytime. But the actuality of the situation is that people may still get really really pissed at some random person taking their photo.
-- https://forum.defcon.org/showthread.php?t=12309&highligh...
Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
#374Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't see how legal realities are at all relevant here. What is relevant is social expectation.
Who on earth has a social expectation of privacy when they are talking in a room full of people with whom they are in very close proximity.
Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
#375Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fucking NorCal. Nobody in NYC would've blinked at that joke. Relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FAI_-woNh4
This is so true. Mind you, I run with a fairly politically-charged crowd -- pro-feminist, pro-gay, firmly anti-racist and anti-sexist -- the kind of people who wouldn't think twice of throwing you out of a bar, physically if necessary, for saying something legitimately creepy or offensive. But still I can't imagine that kind of a joke getting anything more than smirk, or a roll of the eyes out here. Really now, some…
How is this type of reaction any better than saying something anti-feminist, anti-gay, racist or sexist? Sorry but people need to get over the idea that they have the right not to be offended. If you're offended then you can say "I'm offended", you can leave, you can ask the person to leave, you can offer a rebuttal, etc. But physically man-handling someone or reacting in a way that suggests that they have someone violated your "right not to be offended" is wrong because you have/should have no such right.
Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
#376Earlier quoted context omitted.
Have I said anything wrong?
When supporting women's right on Hacker News you tend to get a disproportionate number of downvotes compared to 'normal' topics. That means that if your comment usually would just not get any upvotes (which yours wouldn't since it wasn't terribly well written) you'll suddenly get into negative point territory on these issues. If you look you'll be able to find other comments as well which easily pass the 'constructiv…
Slightly off topic, but if that is the case, then so what? I'm pretty sure it could be scripted (go through all HN topics, check downvotes etc. you could make this reasonably scientific). The point is still, should we even care? Why must we feel like there is a need to shape this fact or alter it according to some PC dogma? Let's be tolerant and leave the community to downvote/upvote as it wants. If it reaches a critical mass then those taking offense will find a way of reacting appropriately (downvoting anti-feminist posts, stop posting on HN, etc.) If HN posters are for the majority anti-feminist, then it is. There will be some people that take offense to this, other's not. The assumption that we can't offend or be offended needs to be questioned.
Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
#377Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're right - I looked into this and it looks like Germany actually has very strict laws regarding this - as strict as Japan's, on cursory examination. It's a shame, IMO - Europe is the birthplace of photography, and of street photography in particular, and we are still reaping the benefits of the historical record provided by decades of laissez-faire attitudes re: photographing strangers.
As I said, there are exceptions. As there always are with the law. Here they are (in German): http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/kunsturhg/__23.html You don’t need permission to publish photos of historical significance. That’s pretty much why newspaper photographers can exist in Germany. All those kinds of photos – if they do not invade some private area of life of the depicted persons – are totally fine. As I alread…
That's insufficient for the sort of photography I mean. There is a tremendous amount of historical value provided in even shots of the mundane. Look up the works of Henri Cartier-Bresson, Garry Winogrand, Treng Parke, among many others - these are photographers who captured regular people, in regular situations, in daily life, and in doing so provide a valuable historical record decades later.
The historical record of a people is, IMO, not embodied in photographs of famous politicians and actors, but rather in regular people - and to disallow their photographing by default inhibits this. The concern isn't just historical, it's also artistic - if we disallowed photography of people without explicit model releases almost all of the photography in art museums today would not exist.
> "Or – and this can apply to street photography – if it serves a higher interest of the arts."
That's an incredibly vague - and conservative - angle on it. Street photography has traditionally pushed the boundaries of what society finds acceptable, and for the most part it is always vindicated over time. Most of the challenging, worthwhile street photography would not hit the "higher interest of the arts" bar at the time they are taken.
Your standard basically means that whatever is being done has been accepted by mainstream society already as a valuable art form. Now tell me, how much of new art is already accepted by society at large at the time of creation?
Take a look at, for example, the work of Bruce Gilden, whose working method is still controversial today, but I for one am glad he has the freedom to do it.
> "I think the general recommendation for street photographers is to make eye contact with who they photograph and check that way whether it’s ok. Also, walking up and talking to who you photographed isn’t super hard."
I do street photography almost every day. I know this - it's easy to get permission, it's hard to shove a piece of paper in someone's face and have them sign their legal rights away. The bar isn't "subjects should be consenting", it's "subjects should have signed a legally binding agreement". That is the part that is unreasonable.
> "As I already said, photographing without publishing is nearly always ok, so you can shoot first and get permission later."
You want to track a stranger on a street down later, put a legal agreement in front of them, and get them to sign it?
> "The right to privacy is one of the rights defined in the German constitution – but so is the freedom of the arts."
All around the world, almost universally, the protect of the "arts" extends only to what has already been deemed acceptable. Street photography still isn't recognized consistently as an art form, much less a protected one. Like I said before, to define acceptability as "worthwhile arts" merely protects what doesn't need protecting: art forms that mainstream society already finds palatable and desirable.
Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
#378Earlier quoted context omitted.
Who on earth has a social expectation of privacy when they are talking in a room full of people with whom they are in very close proximity.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5416169
Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
#379Earlier quoted context omitted.
Once, sat in the audience at OSCON with people I knew, a particularly inappropriate joke occurred to me that I thought the friend sat next to me would appreciate. I sent it to him via private message using my laptop. That way, the conversation was -actually- private, rather than 'private plus whoever else sat near me overheard what I said'. This is not a difficult concept for me, though my primary motivation was 'not…
> That way, the conversation was -actually- private Except if the person in the seat behind you took a screen shot of you or your friends computer screen and then posted it on twitter. There are enough epic fail photos of people playing games during lectures / senate voting to make that a real possibility.
Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming
#380Earlier quoted context omitted.
> That way, the conversation was -actually- private Except if the person in the seat behind you took a screen shot of you or your friends computer screen and then posted it on twitter. There are enough epic fail photos of people playing games during lectures / senate voting to make that a real possibility.
If they lean over my shoulder and read my screen intentionally, they've taken a specific action to do so and I'm comfortable defending myself on the basis that in that case I had an expectation of privacy, and if they were offended by what they read while they were violating it that was their problem.
I do find this tragic but the way it is these days.