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What really happened at PyCon 2013

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Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#61

Post by fuuuuuuuuuuu »

michaelochurch wrote: post #29
obstacle1 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a troll? I don't know your history, but I've heard that you have one, so... If this is a troll, someone let me know, please. Otherwise... >It's designed in a way that makes it very difficult for women to fit in, in any stable and reliable way. Additionally You can't just make a statement, not provide evidence, and then say "additionally...". You haven't proven your first point. What sexist assumptions is whit…

I don't know your history, but I've heard that you have one Only one? I have, like, at least five or six, my friend. What sexist assumptions is white-collar Work [sic] culture based on? And how is it designed such that it is difficult for women to fit in? Dedication and ability are assessed, in most corporations, based on antiquated, counterproductive, and fascistic reliability measures that disfavor, for one example…

> It's almost impossible to take 5 years out of the career game and come back in with the standing you had when you left. While that's not sexist per se, it's incredibly fucking inhumane, and happens to inflict more harm on women.

I couldn't hire someone who had five years without any practice in their trade to most of the positions I hire for.

You seem to be implying that I shouldn't even be considering that in the past 5 years, between two applicants, one has been in the trade, practicing and producing work, and the other hasn't.

That different life choices have different outcomes isn't sexist.

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#63

Post by dutchbrit »

ma2rten wrote: post #25
_delirium wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting point. I don't have any real basis to generalize, but I have been in a number of situations where business people think that tech people are too politically correct. Coming from a general view that tech isn't really a role model in that category to begin with, that was surprising to encounter. My limited time in Europe suggests that European culture on the whole is less attentive on this subject…

Without overgeneralizing too much, Europe does not have the same culture of political correctness as the US does. If someone makes a joke people get offended less quickly. In this case people would just think of the jokers as immature and move on. The only exception I can think of is concerning the holocaust. EDIT: Anyway, I can recommend anyone to live in another culture for some time in their life. First you will f…

When I was working in San Fran (I'm British - live in The Netherlands), the amount of times my colleagues told me, "Sam you're not very PC!" when I made a random funny comment, I always told them, "I know, I'm more of a Mac guy". They weren't offended by my comments I think, but maybe more shocked?

I remember an incident whilst we were walking to lunch, a guy came out of a parking lot with squealing tires... which made me say my most crude comment while I was working there: "Someone is on their period". Sure, I generalised women with that joke, but I didn't mean anything by saying it (just that he was probably cranky..) - it's a joke, the girl I was with could of equally said, "I'm sure that dude has a small penis." I have a regular non-12" cock (I'm not ashamed to admit that) and I wouldn't of been offended. But her comment was, "SAMMM! That's not very PC!". The guy I was with commented, "Ahh, dude, not PC man". All said and done, they were fun people to work with and didn't make a big deal out of it besides commenting, not pc.

Comedians always generalise, and making jokes that are in context with a current situation isn't weird. Come on, loosen up, life is boring when you are forced to only say serious things... We spend most of our lives working. Why should we be forced to spend most of our lives being boring whilst hiding our personality?

This is actually one of the top reasons I'd be afraid of working in the USA again. I don't want to get fired or sued over "sexual harassment" due to a comment like the one I mentioned earlier. That, and the fact that if I'd get fired, I'd have to leave the country within a week...

I do agree, that making a joke specifically about a person you work with, or are in a room with is a big no-no - well, if it's harsh. A meaningless non degrading joke is fine which isn't meant in a serious way. But don't make jokes about people you're with regarding their sex life. People are touchy about that and I can understand. General sex jokes that don't degrade a certain sex? Fine!

In my books, although I find it funny and mean nothing by it, I wouldnt say the following in a work environment: "I have an appointment to get a facial, I'll be back later." - "Lol! Tell him not to get some in your eye!"

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#64

Post by michaelochurch »

martinced wrote: post #37
obstacle1 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a troll? I don't know your history, but I've heard that you have one, so... If this is a troll, someone let me know, please. Otherwise... >It's designed in a way that makes it very difficult for women to fit in, in any stable and reliable way. Additionally You can't just make a statement, not provide evidence, and then say "additionally...". You haven't proven your first point. What sexist assumptions is whit…

"The entire industry is based on risk." The entire industry is based on a business model which only a monkey could fuck up, yet the industry manages to fuck it up (as Taleb writes). You do realize that all these risk computation are totally bogus and led to big trouble in 2008 right? And that there's no risk because when the shit hit the fan bankster simply go say they're too big too fail and get bailed out. And at t…

I like this post.

Business sociopathy is a complex topic but the essence of it can be summed up in 6 words: Heads, I win. Tails, you lose.

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#65

Post by jnazario »

to your point about intro programming courses and python:

my wife used to teach python to gifted middle schoolers as an intro programming course. she brought this up at a regional educator's event when the speaker asked if anyone was doing intro to programming in a language other than VB (or something else, maybe Java). my wife raised her hand sheepishly and said "I used python". everyone was suddenly interested.

the kids did great with python, but she eventually gave up on it because the kids wanted instant gratification and slick UI games. she explored scratch but got pulled in different directions in her teaching load. however, several of her python students over the years have gone on to do interesting things at university.

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#66

Post by pyre »

bad_user wrote: post #51
_delirium wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an American who lives in Denmark, and I agree, but I'm not sure it is people getting offended less quickly in general, versus on specific subjects. There are plenty of ideas that Danes consider to be completely crazy, not really debatable in polite company. For example, suggesting that abortion should be illegal, which is a mainstream position in the USA, is such a crazy-far-right position in Denmark that you cou…

I'm a Romanian. > suggesting that abortion should be illegal, which is a mainstream position in the USA, is such a crazy-far-right position in Denmark Personally I think Americans are spoiled. In Romania under Ceausescu (so before 1989) abortions were illegal. Hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of women (in a country with a population of less than 19 millions) ended up doing illegal abortions under unhealthy,…

The "face" of abortion that is presented by the anti-abortion crowd is that of the teenager that wants to have sex without care for the consequences. Think rich/middle-class white girl that just wants to 'live it up,' then get an abortion before going out clubbing again, or something. You've also got anti-abortion people that believe crap like, "it's impossible for a rape to impregnate a woman because her body physically prevents it." It's a weird form of cognitive dissonance/stupidity.

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#67

Post by maccard »

_delirium wrote: post #35
ma2rten wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without overgeneralizing too much, Europe does not have the same culture of political correctness as the US does. If someone makes a joke people get offended less quickly. In this case people would just think of the jokers as immature and move on. The only exception I can think of is concerning the holocaust. EDIT: Anyway, I can recommend anyone to live in another culture for some time in their life. First you will f…

I'm an American who lives in Denmark, and I agree, but I'm not sure it is people getting offended less quickly in general, versus on specific subjects. There are plenty of ideas that Danes consider to be completely crazy, not really debatable in polite company. For example, suggesting that abortion should be illegal, which is a mainstream position in the USA, is such a crazy-far-right position in Denmark that you cou…

That's not necessarily a European view on abortion. Many countries in Europe are strongly catholic (Ireland, Spain, Italy come to mind), and in some cases, the religious views have affected the laws (read: Ireland). I'm Irish, and abortion is a hotly debated topic; The main people against legalising it are staunchly catholic groups and use this as their basis.

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#69

Post by mamoswined »

"The PyCon Code of Conduct was tested twice that I know of, and it worked well."

No.

Imagine if PyCon had a reasonable code of conduct instead of this "Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks...In particular, exhibitors should not use sexualized images, activities, or other material. Booth staff (including volunteers) should not use sexualized clothing/uniforms/costumes, or otherwise create a sexualized environment."

Which I suspect was designed because a bunch of sex-negative feminists like those at the Ada Initiative just don't like booth babes. They have an obsession with marginal things that they believe might lead to sexism.

When I was more involved with Drupal, I wrote a letter against adding this kind of language to DrupalCon's code of conduct, because I felt it should focus on dealing with actual harassment instead of things some people don't like. I think because I am a woman, people listened to me. Working in tech can be dehumanizing enough as it is without having codes against an entire aspect of humanity- sex, because it might make some people uncomfortable. It's also vague enough that it could turn into a witch hunt pretty quickly.

I started out in Python but it's been like six years since I used it seriously, but if I were still involved I would try to get that removed from the Code of Conduct.

Re: What really happened at PyCon 2013

#70

Post by hurfdurferson »

mamoswined wrote: post #69

"The PyCon Code of Conduct was tested twice that I know of, and it worked well." No. Imagine if PyCon had a reasonable code of conduct instead of this "Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks...In particular, exhibitors should not use sexualized images, activities, or other material. Booth staff (including volunteers) should not use sexualized clothing/uniforms/costume…

A professional tech conference shouldn't have a code of conduct banning sex talk which, by the way, is completely irrelevant to technology? Just because you, as a woman, don't have a problem with it then no other woman is allowed to have a problem with it? Nice. Hey ladies, mamoswined ain't faded. Sexism is OVER.
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