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Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

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Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#251

Post by rdl »

georgeorwell wrote: post #192
rdl wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://instagram.com/p/W3htw7gaR5/ ?

Yeah, that one. There are more pictures of it on her Facebook page along with plenty of nasty comments. Basically the game is based on politically incorrect 'humor' and they were playing it in public spaces at PyCon. Although I probably wouldn't have reported it, I still find it more offensive than puerile dick jokes.

I'm wary of heading too far down this line because I've certainly done things (hosted X-rated parties, etc.) at conferences in the past, which I certainly wouldn't do as official conference events under a company name with random people, but which seem fine in a social setting. And gotten drunk on stage, etc.

But at a "hacker" thing (DC7-13, etc.), not at a developer conference or professional event. There probably is some evolving standard of conduct now that things which were formerly mostly underground are now essentially big business.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#252

Post by freshhawk »

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #240
rdl wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently it's ok to post offensive jokes/sexual innuendo if you're a woman ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/adriarichards/sets/721576169418... ) or ( https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 ), just like you can only be racist if you're white ( https://twitter.com/adriarichards/statuses/6039856858 )

> just like you can only be racist if you're white ( https://twitter.com/adriarichards/statuses/6039856858 ) I see people post this a lot without understanding the point of what she's saying. Adria subscribes to the belief that "racism = prejudice + power", which is basically to say that, yes, black people can be hateful towards white people and yes, racial discrimination does occur within the black community, but RA…

Don't blame the reader for not being aware of a failed definition of the term "racism". The definition of "race based prejudice" is the one being taught across the western world to children and it has therefore "won".

The concept you describe is indeed important and should be understood, absolutely, but don't blame the reader for the authors failure to communicate. Especially when that failure is mostly intentional as part of a struggle to redefine a word that has significant power. A very useful tactic when it succeeds, but that battle has been lost in this case for quite a while.

Personally I'm quite happy with the common definition of "racism" because the belief you describe is too tied up with the dated concept of "race" (which doesn't exist in reality) and means that the determining factor in whether an action is "racist" is the skin colour and ancestry of those involved, neither of which is under the control of any participants. The other definition means it is determined by asking if the action was prejudiced and if that prejudice was related to race.

There is a very good point to make here that the more common definition can make it more difficult for people to understand the effects of generations of oppression can have on a class of people, even on that society generally considers overt racial prejudice to be unacceptable. The definition you describe does not have this flaw.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#253

Post by ajju »

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #240
rdl wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently it's ok to post offensive jokes/sexual innuendo if you're a woman ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/adriarichards/sets/721576169418... ) or ( https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 ), just like you can only be racist if you're white ( https://twitter.com/adriarichards/statuses/6039856858 )

> just like you can only be racist if you're white ( https://twitter.com/adriarichards/statuses/6039856858 ) I see people post this a lot without understanding the point of what she's saying. Adria subscribes to the belief that "racism = prejudice + power", which is basically to say that, yes, black people can be hateful towards white people and yes, racial discrimination does occur within the black community, but RA…

I am brown. I have never felt like I was treated in a prejudiced manner by a white person that I know. My grandfather was. Some brown people still are. If I discriminate against a white person, that's not a response to racism, it's racism and calling it anything else is utter bullshit.

For what it's worth, if I am treated in a prejudiced manner by person A, and I treat person B in a prejudiced manner, and the only thing connecting A to B is race, that too is racism.

Or in simpler terms, two wrongs don't make a right.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#254

Post by tptacek »

michaelochurch wrote: post #231
tptacek wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what specific way do you believe at-will employment is likely to be insufficient to allow someone's employers to fire them over a Twitter message?

Well, let's start with the fact that it wasn't his Twitter message. SendGrid is probably home free on firing Adria Richards, because she did something objectionable-- harassed someone and cost him his job. PlayHaven, on the other hand, doesn't have a defensible cause for firing him. This would be even more true if he hadn't admitted to the comment as Mr Hank. Then he'd have been fired on her hearsay.

It is in fact lawful to fire in the US on hearsay.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#255

Post by cameronh90 »

mlent wrote: post #248
ramblerman wrote: post #31

Without tumbling deep into a flame war, I'd like to ask a sincere question. I have trouble understanding the sexism behind the remarks, and why the instigator needs to apologize (for sexism). People get offended for all kinds of things, nobody can claim a monopoloy on that. ( http://imgur.com/EX5v4 stephen fry quote) - If they would both have been gay and talking about a homosexual topic, someone in that room would b…

According to the article I read, which could be wrong, the phrase was "I'd fork that repo." In and of itself, harmless, but said in the proper tone (don't know if it was), it would remind me of things that have been said about me . I.e. People talking about how they would do 'x' to me. Totally creepy and disturbing, right? A phrase like that is called a 'trigger'. The same reason you don't say the n-word around a per…

But how can you know what someone will find to be a trigger? Someone can find almost anything offensive for some reason, or have it remind them of a bad experience. If they were being particularly graphic, of course, that would be inappropriate, but even if this was a wiggley-eyebrows wink wink nudge nudge sexual innuendo, it still seems pretty harmless (other than going against PyCon's rules which is bad). I could get offended, as a vegetarian, by someone saying they're so hungry they could eat a horse - or if I were anorexic, maybe that would be a trigger?

The alternative seems to be that we all become humourless drones, just in case any of our humour offends someone. Maybe I'm biased though, as a Brit: if we didn't have sexual innuendo, we couldn't get up in the morning (wink wink nudge nudge). It's as essential as our morning breakfast tea.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#256

Post by [deleted] »

mlent wrote: post #248
ramblerman wrote: post #31

Without tumbling deep into a flame war, I'd like to ask a sincere question. I have trouble understanding the sexism behind the remarks, and why the instigator needs to apologize (for sexism). People get offended for all kinds of things, nobody can claim a monopoloy on that. ( http://imgur.com/EX5v4 stephen fry quote) - If they would both have been gay and talking about a homosexual topic, someone in that room would b…

According to the article I read, which could be wrong, the phrase was "I'd fork that repo." In and of itself, harmless, but said in the proper tone (don't know if it was), it would remind me of things that have been said about me . I.e. People talking about how they would do 'x' to me. Totally creepy and disturbing, right? A phrase like that is called a 'trigger'. The same reason you don't say the n-word around a per…

[deleted]

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#257

Post by protomyth »

ajju wrote: post #253
rmrfrmrf wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just like you can only be racist if you're white ( https://twitter.com/adriarichards/statuses/6039856858 ) I see people post this a lot without understanding the point of what she's saying. Adria subscribes to the belief that "racism = prejudice + power", which is basically to say that, yes, black people can be hateful towards white people and yes, racial discrimination does occur within the black community, but RA…

I am brown. I have never felt like I was treated in a prejudiced manner by a white person that I know. My grandfather was. Some brown people still are. If I discriminate against a white person, that's not a response to racism, it's racism and calling it anything else is utter bullshit. For what it's worth, if I am treated in a prejudiced manner by person A, and I treat person B in a prejudiced manner, and the only th…

Have to agree with you. I have a fairly messed up background for this, and prejudice based on race is racism. Any other name for it is just foolishness.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#258

Post by Shank »

This is, by far, one of the bests posts I've seen about the Adria situation, because it isn't entirely biased to one side. Amanda (the post author) notes that "[nobody] won," which is the signifying action as to why this is so important. Adria was threatened and hated upon over an overreaction. While she definitely didn't do the right thing initially, the best move would have been to mitigate damage, both from Play Haven & SendGrid. If both companies had apologized, they would both be better off for it, and it wouldn't have resulted in any DDoSing or threats. I'm disappointed at all of the reactions attacking Adria, because they're the exact thing she was trying to prevent in the first place (sexism, hatred), because it wasn't constructive. It does nothing but burn bridges, and undermines the original problem (the dev being fired) in the first place. If the community instead rallied around the dev & asked him to get reinstated, rather than attacked Adria, it would have ended differently.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#259

Post by michaelochurch »

tptacek wrote: post #254
michaelochurch wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, let's start with the fact that it wasn't his Twitter message. SendGrid is probably home free on firing Adria Richards, because she did something objectionable-- harassed someone and cost him his job. PlayHaven, on the other hand, doesn't have a defensible cause for firing him. This would be even more true if he hadn't admitted to the comment as Mr Hank. Then he'd have been fired on her hearsay.

It is in fact lawful to fire in the US on hearsay.

This might be technically true. So, then, if you're fired over hearsay, your next step is to mandate that the firing employer cooperate fully in your suit (defamation, tortious interference) against the originator of the hearsay. If not, then there will be a termination suit. If they don't want to cooperate in your suit against the libelous person, or be sued, then they pony up a settlement.

Termination suits often come down to image, especially of the employer's conduct. An employer that's cooperative and fair usually wins. An employer that seems dodgy (by, for example, firing someone on hearsay and not cooperating with proceedings against the person who supplied the information) is at risk, and looks bad even if victorious.

This is a very gray area of law, at least in practice. There are few termination cases that are clearly black or white. That's why severance packages and those hideous PIPs exist.

Re: Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost

#260

Post by Steuard »

cameronh90 wrote: post #250
Steuard wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing something I wrote on another thread here: Dick jokes are perceived to be almost exclusively a part of "guy culture". Want proof? Watch how fast a group of guys making those jokes suddenly clams up and changes the topic the moment an unfamiliar woman walks up. (And when a woman joins in and shows that she's comfortable making those jokes, too, watch how glad everyone is that she can be "just one of the guys".…

The reason a group of men clams up when a woman walks past is because they're worried she'll take offense like Adria did. Evidence it's not exclusively part of men's culture is that when a women shows herself not to be offended, most groups of men will actively include her in those jokes. It doesn't mean we actually think it's offensive or understand why anyone would be offended.. honestly I find it kind of baffling,…

It feels like you're missing my point a bit here, so maybe I've been unclear. The reasons that the guys clam up aren't really the issue at all, and I'm not trying to make claims about whether dick jokes are or should be offensive to anyone.

My actual point is that in practice, whatever the reason, guys typically only make those jokes when they consider themselves to be in an environment where such jokes are welcome: what I called a "male space". So what does it imply when guys at tech conferences feel comfortable making dick jokes in public? The message that "this is a male space" comes across loud and clear to everyone who hears them: men feel a bit more comfortable making off-color jokes of their own, and women feel like outsiders.

Again, all of those implications are entirely independent of whether anyone actually finds the jokes themselves offensive, and independent of the reasons that guys typically self-censor. In this case, I rather suspect that Richards herself was not offended by the joke, but was upset that the guys were (unconsciously) sending a "male space" message simply by being willing to say it out loud.

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