SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas • Hacker News Board

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#541

Post by thedudemabry » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 10:50 PM UTC

nashadelic wrote: post #320

blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

We are now going to penalize people for standing up for themselves? She faced sexist remarks, she shamed them. Good on her. I'm an outside observer and I've never been to the valley but SendGrid comes off as irresponsible and not backing up their people. > What if I Accidentally say something she finds offensive Accidentally offensive? Like calling someone a nigger? Or a faggot? And at the same time you make it sound…

Whoa, whoa. I'm not disagreeing with your sentiments, but an off-color joke does not equal hate speech. Let's keep unnecessary hyperbole out of this, please.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#542

Post by ahoyhere » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 10:51 PM UTC

ericabiz wrote: post #217

blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

> "Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women." Okay, time to speak up! Hi, I'm a woman in tech. And this upset me, but not for the reasons you think. I agree that Adria went too far in publicly Tweeting and "name and shaming" these guys. But the vitriol and hate that has spewed forth online to her is what takes my breath away. Comments calling…

What do you do when you meet a woman at a party who makes an offhand comment about her "worthless son"? Nothing, right? Maybe "That's really rude" and walk away? Certainly no crusade will be mounted. Because: she's simply a bad person[1], and nothing you can say will do anything, you won't change her mind or shame her, and you certainly won't help the son's case, and anyone who knows the woman in question will know she's a jerk already. There's no point. Jerks are jerks. They come in both penis and vagina versions. Many of them are famous.

As for the guy who wouldn't talk to you, here's what you do:

"Excuse me. I'm over here. I run the business." Then smile.

I once did this to a guy who was trying to sell my boyfriend a car… when I was the one shopping. ("Excuse me, I'm the one with the money.") It solves the problem immediately. It causes temporary embarrassment for the lunkhead, he'll stop, and believe me he'll "get it" because he will stop trying to get the handy local man to explain why you/he are there, and you can all move on instead of silently steaming for ages.

It also works when somebody is at a dinner and saying "Women do this" -- you can simply say "I don't." And if that person is a prominent woman tech blogger, and you are me, then she'll shun you for the rest of the event, which works out just fine!

Like I said -- jerks come in all genital varieties.

[1] or maybe this angry mother isn't a jerk, maybe she's "just having a bad day," and "made a mistake," and makes a comment to a bunch of people at a party instead of photographing her son asleep during a test and using her position of power on Twitter to get him kicked out of his university… luckily for her, she's a woman, so she has the option of making a mistake in airing out family dirty laundry and being forgiven(?).

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#543

Post by aplusbi » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 10:56 PM UTC

obstacle1 wrote: post #408

knowtheory wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But men in female dominated fields tend not to get death threats and photos of beheaded corpses, or threats of rape. The way that women get treated in male dominated fields like tech really has gotten worse.

I don't think this is true. If we could somehow compile a list of all the people 4chan has attacked over the years I'd bet we'd see equal opportunity trolling. What was that incident a while back, where the "security expert" offered a reward for breaking into his site? 4chan took up the offer, succeeded, and trolled the guy relentlessly. Death threats, photoshops, you name it. And he was a _male_ in a male-dominated…

Men don't get rape threats from women, I think is the key take-away.

I'm sure you can find an example of it happening but it's not a regular occurrence.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#544

Post by Steuard » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 10:57 PM UTC

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #475

Steuard wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People really, really oversimplify these situations when they focus on ideas like "feeling offended". Yes, everyone is allowed to feel offended. That's not the point. The point is that women in our society live their entire lives under a constant barrage of related offensive behaviors that men do not. Black people in our society live their entire lives under a constant barrage of related offensive behaviors that whit…

constant barrage ? A bit of hyperbole there don't you think?

Not in the slightest. (Unless you took my "constant" to mean "every second" rather than "multiple times each day".)

I used to think about this sort of issue in much the same way that you seem to (or at least, I made similar comments at times). I was doing my best to be fair and sensible. But over the past year or two, I've read a lot and learned a lot, and I've realized that I was wrong. This stuff is complicated, and if you haven't spent as much time studying it as you'd spend on a couple of college courses, you probably don't understand it as fully as you think. (I certainly didn't.)

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#545

Post by JohnBooty » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 10:58 PM UTC

katbyte wrote: post #522

JohnBooty wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hasn't ever been an issue for me. I understand that when I'm seated at a conference, the people around me can hear what I'm saying, and adjust the volume of my voice and/or the content of my speech accordingly. > ...and someone overhears, takes a picture of you > and then publicly crucifies you online? The guy's actions and Adria's actions are two separate things, really. I'd still be in the wrong for subjecting…

you've now left the conference, you on the bus/tram/whatever on the way back to the hotel with your friends joking around. You make an inappropriate remark/joke and she overhears. She overreacts, snaps a pic of you wearing your badge/company shirt and tweets it. Where does the line get drawn?

The line gets drawn here: it's not good behavior to subject a stranger to unwanted sexual banter. You can change the setting to a bus, or a train, or a tent in the Himalayas.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#546

Post by mc32 » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 11:02 PM UTC

cjbprime wrote: post #538

mc32 wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if we polled all conferences for all language that some attending population feel is off the table? Should lawyers plan to vote to ban all lawyer jokes, even if said by insiders? What about bankers' conferences, maybe have them keep attendees from asking pointed questions about bailouts and fraud, etc? I don't think people should be jocular and act like college fraternity members all their lives, but at the same…

> What if we polled all conferences for all language that some attending population feel is off the table? Should lawyers plan to vote to ban all lawyer jokes, even if said by insiders? The problem with slippery slope arguments is that they have a simple solution of stopping the slope, or at least considering each new idea separately: don't make sex jokes, but do (or not, whatever) make lawyer jokes. I can think of a…

To me it's not so much a slippery slope argument but rather, what makes one population deserving of an exclusion and another not. In other words, how does one qualify that lawyers are less hurt by language that berates them vs language which damages women, on an individual level.

>about whether someone might assault or sexually harass them soon.

I think that's a big leap. This line of argument could be used to sweep up the loiters and homeless people who act like they might attack someone due to their language and behavior.

> We already have a problem with women feeling excluded and unwelcome

I think the best way to approach that is to start young. In school, drive students of either sex to the possibilities in technology. This will make the eventual males in tech familiar and receptive to eventual women in tech. they should both feel they're both a natural fit, given their disposition.

>Making sex jokes at a tech conference can encourage the objectifying idea that women are there for their sex appeal

I don't agree. The jokes are not the objectifiers. It's the people, both the doers and the receivers. They both have to agree that jokes in question are a manner of objectification for that to have effect.

If you told a lawyer joke in an audience of drug dealers, there is little effect. If it's told by someone who hates lawyers, it takes significance, in American law. A lawyer joke among an audience of Chinese lawyers might fall flat.

>Following a code of conduct that you'd previously agreed to follow seems exactly like what living in a society is to me.

I agree there are basic parameters, but I feel that some people will always be more crude than others and I'm not comfortable saying crudeness is categorically unacceptable.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#547

Post by JohnBooty » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 11:03 PM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #496

JohnBooty wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She claims jokes were offending, she then posts > racists and penis jokes on her twitter account. > Not only does it smell of hypocrisy it smells of > maliciousness. Wow, so if your mother (or sister, or girlfriend, or wife, or daughter) has ever made an off-color joke in her life, that gives any man in the world the right to discuss penises with her in person? I mean, wow. That's what you're getting at. Twitter ha…

Everybody has the right to discuss penises, or anything they like, provided participants in discussion willing to do it. If they do not, the preceding history does not matter. However, in this case as far as I understand (please correct if I'm wrong) the person took offense not for something that was directed at her, but by something that is merely said in her presence, without her being the intended recipient or par…

  > but for one to expect they'd never overhear anything that
  > they would not discuss personally would be an unwarranted 
  > imposition on others.

If she'd walked by their table in a restaurant and overheard them, or eavesdropped on them by putting her ear up to a closed door? Okay, then they might be able to claim they never could have expected to be overheard.

But they were sitting directly behind her. Literally a few feet away. In chairs that were facing toward her. How could they not expect that their words would be audible to her?

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#548

Post by jamesaguilar » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 11:08 PM UTC

miql wrote: post #537

jamesaguilar wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had to guess, Adria at least has a pretty easily won harassment lawsuit against SendGrid for this. She was fired for speaking out about an instance of sexually inappropriate humor while she was acting in a professional capacity. Um? Even if you think the way she spoke out was not appropriate, you can't fire someone for this without running some serious risks of large lawsuits. For anyone who's curious, the texts…

It's retaliation if Adria filed a charge against SendGrid and then was fired. "because they filed a charge of discrimination, because they complained to their employer or other covered entity about discrimination on the job, or because they participated in an employment discrimination proceeding" I don't think this holds water.

Yeah, if this is a total statement of the law's provisions, then it is probable that this is not retaliation. However, if discrimination covers making complaints about the discriminatory behavior or harassment of third parties (i.e. the gentlemen she posted the picture of), then it would. I would be interested to find out.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#549

Post by JohnBooty » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 11:15 PM UTC

atirip wrote: post #436

JohnBooty wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same > room as this person. What if I accidentally say > something that she finds offensive? Am I next? I wouldn't feel uncomfortable around her at all, because I find it very easy to avoid saying sexually inappropriate things to women I don't know. I have quite an off-color sense of humor myself. I joke a lot and a lot of those jokes involve sex, bodily functions,…

>because I find it very easy to avoid saying sexually inappropriate things to women I don't know. How do you know what women you do not know find sexually inappropriate??

Easy: avoid saying sexual things to total strangers.

Once you get to know people, you'll get to know their sense of humor pretty quickly, and generally sexual jokes are completely okay between friends!

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#550

Post by katbyte » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 11:16 PM UTC

ceol wrote: post #402

_ak wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shamed publicly, slandered, etc.?

Because Adria is the only person who has the power to shame someone publicly? She's the only one with 9,000 twitter followers, she's the only one with a camera phone, and she's the only one who can upload photos to twitter? I find the concern of being in the same room as her incredibly stupid.

I don't have twitter, Facebook etc. Even if i did i doubt i would have that many followers because i don't find any appeal in it. I could not reach the audience she did. I do not have the power to easily shame someone publicly.

I think that goes for most people. I would be concerned and i'm female. What if i disagree with her? Its not stupid, its cautious.