There's some awfully strange stuff in this particular post, though I generally agree that startups tend to lowball people on offers. For instance: > I turned them down because they were preparing to make me a below-market offer in exchange for what I expected to be an insulting amount of equity, and a non-existant benefits package. There are three possible answers to an offer: yes, no, counter. It's really odd to foc…
If they just raised at a $40mm valuation, 0.5% equity is literally worth $200k to them right now True for a stock grant, but these are stock options.
Benefits matter, or why I won't work for your Y Combinator startup
271–280 of 360 posts
Re: Benefits matter, or why I won't work for your Y Combinator startup
#272Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just because a startup doesn't offer lots of monetary benefits doesn't mean it doesn't respect its employees. Generally, the advantage of a startup is that you get far greater independence and autonomy than in a large corporation. You have to personally weigh what matters to you more: money or independence. My point was that startups should favor employees who want independence more than money because as it has been…
What does money have to do with independence? Can't you richly reward autonomous engineers? Are you suggesting there is an inverse correlation between independence and benefits? Are you suggesting there is a mutually exclusive zero-sum relationship between attention paid to benefits and attention paid to independence? All of these are unfounded assumptions.
1. Startups don't have as much money as a large corporation.
2. You, as an engineer, have more autonomy at a startup than a large corporation.
The reason I would choose to work at a startup over a corporation is because I value my autonomy, even if it means making less money than I would if I took a job at a large company. When I am a 45 year old father, my priorities will probably change. There's nothing wrong with that.
The question at hand is, should startups try to compete with large corporations on benefit packages? Benefits are important to feeling welcome and appreciated at work. At no point have I claimed otherwise.
My sole claim has been that if I had to make a tradeoff between certain benefits (that don't necessarily impact me as a young recent college graduate) and increased autonomy, I will pick autonomy. This is why startups optimize for recruiting younger developers. If a young developer thinks an idea is cool and believes in it, she will work her ass off. A 45 year old father, on the other hand, has other priorities. To reiterate, there is nothing wrong with that! But if a startup cannot afford to support such an experienced programmer (startups can't offer competitive salary, job safety, 401k, etc), it's better for the 45yo father to consider that before hand, rather than get burned later.
If the startup had offered him the same benefits and salary as the large company, he may have accepted the startup's offer. The startup could then go out of business in 2 months, and he'd be screwed. A young college graduate would have far more flexibility to bounce back and find another job, simply because the younger developer has fewer responsibilities.
A startup should offer as many benefits as it can. But the reality is that most startups simply cannot provide the same benefits as a large company, and I think that's ok. It's really not as evil as the author makes it seem because startups are targeting a different demographic than him.
If a startup's lack of benefits aren't acceptable to you, then you probably also shouldn't be taking the many other risks involved with doing a startup.
Re: Benefits matter, or why I won't work for your Y Combinator startup
#273Earlier quoted context omitted.
> ...while the 40-year-old is thinking, "kid, if I wanted to take on that kind of risk and insanity, I'd have your job". So what made that 40-year-old think he wanted to work for the startup in the first place? if the founder's position is too risky and insane for his taste, how is an employee position going to be any better? I mean, everything he's saying is true, and the take-away seems to be that 40 year olds with…
> if the founder's position is too risky and insane for his taste, how is an employee position going to be any better? The founder has upside potential to compensate for the risk. If the employee position has much less upside potential (i.e. equity), but just as much risk, it had better be balanced by higher compensation than you could get in a "stable, cushy job."
Re: Benefits matter, or why I won't work for your Y Combinator startup
#274Earlier quoted context omitted.
How's he doing with that offer? Is he at least paying market salary?
He hasn't started it yet. He's bootstrapping. He plans on paying market to slightly above, and being generous with annual bonuses (the profit-sharing). Wall Street gets a bad rap for its bonuses, and there are some cultural problems with it, but it's a better mechanism for compensation than what VC-istan uses. Also, I think that Wall Street culture is less horrible than VC-istan. On Wall Street, some people get butth…
Bootstrapping is attractive, but it's very hard to do. Also, as misguided as employee equity grants might be, it has become the standard for compensation in SV; that a company doesn't offer some token ownership definitely will make it harder to hire.
I think it really boils down to, if you want to take part in "VC-istan" as a founder/employee, move to SF, if not, go somewhere else, because it's just too hard to hire/hold down an office/live in SF on bootstrapping.
Re: Benefits matter, or why I won't work for your Y Combinator startup
#275Someone scrimping and saving every penny and working a side job is not going to grab some hardware that helps them work, or take a cab when they need it to get to an important meeting, or work overnight, etc. they are going to scrimp and save and be less effective and clock out ASAP each day to do their contracting or spend time with their kid.
It doesn't really surprise me that he then considers joining a C round company the same as joining a freshly funded YC company and that he thinks both will just sell to a talent acquisition. And that he doesn't think a smaller earlier company gives him a lot more independence and control over what happens to the company. You can find a lot of founders who definitely will not go for a talent acquisition, which you would do if you are going for a big win. And joining a later round at the same equity means much less upside for the big win. You aren't going to be part of as many big valuation increases. But if you aren't putting a lot into the startup and are spending time on kids, contacting on the side, saving up for a house, I kind of doubt you are going for a big win at your company anyway.
It's OK if you aren't going for a big win, but should you join a startup if you aren't? Should you say joining a startup is a bad idea when you are intentionally making all the choices that make it a bad idea? I don't think he's really in a position to even understand the cost benefits of more cash/benefits vs. more equity and more runway and better startup performance since he doesn't care about the startup's performance, so of course he prefers more cash/benefits.
Re: Benefits matter, or why I won't work for your Y Combinator startup
#276I make around to slightly above market rates.
I have no benefits.
I pay for health insurance. I have no paid vacation. I don't get catered lunches. I don't get a foosball table either.
Even though I'm a field service engineer, I don't even have a company vehicle.
I'm a mid-career telecom engineer, I've been doing telecom support and IT Service for 10 years, I would love to find a permanent position, every perm role I have made it into, I've been either downsized or outsourced out of. So I contract. So when I see someone like this bemoaning their very good situation, I can't help but roll my eyes a little.
Re: Benefits matter, or why I won't work for your Y Combinator startup
#277Earlier quoted context omitted.
The risk also needs to be considered separately, though. For example, which of these is better compensation? $100,000/year or Each year, there is a 0.1% chance that you will be paid $1 billion. Simple math tells us that the second one has a 10x higher expected financial outcome. But few people would actually consider that to be better compensation. Lower risk is better, to an extent that can outweigh a higher expecte…
I'm sorry, but there is a 0% chance that an employee will be paid $1 billion. An employee is just a hired hand and has zero control and zero information about how money is being distributed. Once that kind of money is on the table, there would certainly be some way for people controlling the company to change that outcome, so an employee will never see that kind of money. And it will be done. Just business. Nothing p…
Re: Benefits matter, or why I won't work for your Y Combinator startup
#278Earlier quoted context omitted.
"I bet it's going to have an unintended consequence of increasing the social difference between founders and employees." I bet it exacerbates the current problem of too many startups fighting for too few competent people. There's no surprise here that working for a startup is usually a raw deal (worst of both worlds). I wonder if the lessons of 1999-2001 were forgotten. Makes sense, given that it's been more than a d…
They weren't forgotten, that's why it's so hard to hire.
Re: Benefits matter, or why I won't work for your Y Combinator startup
#279Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nobody gets anti-dilution protection. Including founders.
By saying "including founders" you make it seem so fair. After all, if there is any benefit, founders should get it, right? But, founders obviously cannot have anti-dilution prevention. When a company is founded, by definition the founders have 100% of it, and the only way they can raise money is by diluting. If two founders and three VC reps are sitting around the board table discussing the next round of funding, if…
Potentially later stage startups that retain founders as C level executives grant stock but that's a separate distinction I would think.
Re: Benefits matter, or why I won't work for your Y Combinator startup
#280I'll repost a previous comment for the benefit of the HN community concerning exactly this situation for start-up employees from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5255362 (great discussion there btw), for those who missed it the first time around (hope that's ok): ... Here are a few tips for others startup employees: 1. Take the least amount of stock possible - your startup is statistically unlikely to succeed. It…
This is a worthwhile suggestion regardless of startup or not. You don't want a large portion of your assets tied up in the company you work for, where a calamitous event can both cause you to lose your job and your savings. Take the cash, invest it in / bet it on something where there is low correlation between the investment performance and your probability of continued employment.