Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

"Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

discuss.emberjs.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 252 posts

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#211

Post by joshstrange »

trek wrote: post #78
joshstrange wrote: post #27

Trek is making a huge mistake IMHO. As a developer I can think of nothing more helpful than to get a "steam-of-consciousness" excerpt from our users. This is something no analytics package can tell you, if you want to make your "product" easy to use then this is the exact feedback you need. Delverworld was outlining the various pitfalls of getting started with ember.js and a core contributor shrugs it off because he…

I have admitted that, publicly, very often, in other topics on discuss.emberjs.com, on websites, on twitter, on videos, and elsewhere. It's no secret I'd like to improve the documentation for Ember.js and I'm already well aware of the places that people are facing difficulty right now. There's work, if people spent a moment reading the top topics in the forum, on a getting started guide with a direct call for feedbac…

@Trek

I do understand what you are saying and I don't want for a minute to imply that you are required to help, I understand that you are a volunteer. That said my point is that while you might not have liked the way he phrased his post, writing him off because of it is not what I would have done. I will be the first to admit that I can be a VERY sarcastic person if I put my mind to it and so maybe my opinion is biased to agree with the style and even enjoy reading things written in this style. Reading Delvarworld's post brought back many memories on trying new software/code (not ember specifically) and the irritation felt when something has such a high learning curve. However, I believe that it makes more sense to simply agree that the documentation could be better and possibly even invite Delvarworld to jump on IRC or discuss on the forums ways he thought the docs could be improved instead of ignoring him.

In my mind I saw it as someone explaining the steps they took to try something and outlining the various ways they failed in that endeavor and then you, a core contributor, coming down to essentially tell him to fuck off, it wasn't worth your time. I know that's not what you wrote and I don't think that's how you felt but it is what I got out of it. I think bphogan makes a great point with "I'm sure you didn't just dismiss it internally, so why did you dismiss it externally?". I don't know you, I have actually never heard of you , this was the first thing (to my knowledge) that I have ever read of yours and what I took away from it was that you simply didn't care. Like I said I don't think you don't care, it's just how it came across, at least to me.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#212

Post by joshstrange »

mootothemax wrote: post #34
joshstrange wrote: post #27

Trek is making a huge mistake IMHO. As a developer I can think of nothing more helpful than to get a "steam-of-consciousness" excerpt from our users. This is something no analytics package can tell you, if you want to make your "product" easy to use then this is the exact feedback you need. Delverworld was outlining the various pitfalls of getting started with ember.js and a core contributor shrugs it off because he…

No one likes having their shortcomings pointed out but it would have made much more sense for Trek to admit that getting started could be made easier and that the Ember.js team would look into ways to make it easier Agreed. I recently had a new user point out in quite spectacularly a direct fashion how unfriendly the "Getting Started" section of one of my apps is. It made painful reading, but I would happily pay for…

Same here, I used to be much more of a "hot-head" when it came to things like this (I'm still not perfect, far from it) but I try not to take things as personally, at the end of the day if it makes my product better then I should shut up and be happy.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#213

Post by joshstrange »

rxcfc wrote: post #91
joshstrange wrote: post #27

Trek is making a huge mistake IMHO. As a developer I can think of nothing more helpful than to get a "steam-of-consciousness" excerpt from our users. This is something no analytics package can tell you, if you want to make your "product" easy to use then this is the exact feedback you need. Delverworld was outlining the various pitfalls of getting started with ember.js and a core contributor shrugs it off because he…

Knowing Trek, I think his frustration here is in large part with himself. He cares very deeply about giving users a good experience with Ember and knows that we aren't achieving that as well as we'd like. We've been planning and working on an improved Getting Started story for a while now but, because all of us on the Core Team are very busy with our day jobs, it's been slower going that we would have liked. To have…

Peter, I get this, I get this 100x over. When I put my time/effort into something I try to do my very best. A user telling me it's wrong/broken/sucks makes me feel like my best isn't good enough. My point was that publicly a response like this hurts far more than the satisfaction you get from posting it. Trust me, I have been burned by this before and I had to learn from it. I have never used Ember.js but I plan to, I think it looks cool and have seen a few projects that use it to do really cool things. A response like this makes the community look un-inviting, the whole "Figure it out yourself"/"It's not worth my time to help you" attitude is not productive. I may realize that one developer does not speak for the entire project but not everyone will and there will be people turned off by such a response. I would hate to see Ember.js suffer because one developer found it against his "rules" to respond AND took the time to make sure everyone knew how he felt.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#214

Post by benburton »

trek wrote: post #78
joshstrange wrote: post #27

Trek is making a huge mistake IMHO. As a developer I can think of nothing more helpful than to get a "steam-of-consciousness" excerpt from our users. This is something no analytics package can tell you, if you want to make your "product" easy to use then this is the exact feedback you need. Delverworld was outlining the various pitfalls of getting started with ember.js and a core contributor shrugs it off because he…

I have admitted that, publicly, very often, in other topics on discuss.emberjs.com, on websites, on twitter, on videos, and elsewhere. It's no secret I'd like to improve the documentation for Ember.js and I'm already well aware of the places that people are facing difficulty right now. There's work, if people spent a moment reading the top topics in the forum, on a getting started guide with a direct call for feedbac…

I'm in the minority here, but I 100% agree with you. I could see myself posting the exact same response.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#215

Post by anigbrowl »

trek wrote: post #194
jaggederest wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you see that that, in itself, is a response? To not respond would be to not post at all . Edit: After reading the FAQ you linked elsewhere, your response is explicitly tone-based and unhelpful. I believe that violates the polite discourse rule more than anything the original poster said.

As the saying goes: "You can't not communicate." Not responding is also communication. So I responded. Privately, to the poster, with a long explanation of the kind of conversation on this topic I'd love to share, and publicly explaining why I wasn't going to chime in after having been asked to. Most people are assuming my only response to him is the one they can see. They're mistaken.

I'm sorry to be blunt, but You're Doing It Wrong. You are not the arbiter of how to have a good conversation, but the nominal go-to person for Ember.js documentation. From a cold reading (ie not being an Ember.js user and not knowing any of the participants in the discussion), my reading of Delvarworld's commentary is that s/he worked to soften the blow of his/her criticisms by couching them in gentle humor, and describing systematically the thought process and frustration encoutnered in trying to get to grips with this tool. A lot of people would have just said 'this sucks/is stupid' or something worse.

Slapping the poster down in public without any attempt at a substantive response, and then sending a long private explanation of how you should be communicated is a major dick move.* You are arbitrarily setting yourself up as a superior being and deflecting wholly valid criticism by making such public pronouncements. Following up with a private message is not much better, because it prevents the recipient from having the issue out with you without breaking the implicit confidentiality of email.

* Since you referred upthread to 'dickitide' I am presuming the term 'dick move' is not going to be offensive to you.

Your role as a community member is not to lecture other people in how they may address you (within reason, there's no reason you should have to tolerate outright abuse), but to exemplify the standards you wish to propagate. If you use community standards as a shield to deflect substantive criticisms of your work, voluntary or not, then you are undermining those very standards by using them for exclusionary purposes. The fact that you are in a distinct minority in this discussion and are defending your position by arguing that dickitude is the norm and you are the exception ought to serve as a red flag for you.

My advice is to apologize to the original poster (ie Delvarworld) for your dismissive reaction and then engage with that poster's substantive criticisms. If you truly feel unable to engage with someone who is engaged in the mildest kind of personal expression, then perhaps being in a liaison position is not for you.

In the meantime, I urge you to revisit the Discourse blog article you linked to (where you cited the 'don't be a dick' principle) and keep reading to (at least) the section titled 'Be reasonable, even when you disagree,' which includes a plea to avoid 'responding to a post’s tone instead of its actual content.'

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#216

Post by nacs »

trek wrote: post #194
jaggederest wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you see that that, in itself, is a response? To not respond would be to not post at all . Edit: After reading the FAQ you linked elsewhere, your response is explicitly tone-based and unhelpful. I believe that violates the polite discourse rule more than anything the original poster said.

As the saying goes: "You can't not communicate." Not responding is also communication. So I responded. Privately, to the poster, with a long explanation of the kind of conversation on this topic I'd love to share, and publicly explaining why I wasn't going to chime in after having been asked to. Most people are assuming my only response to him is the one they can see. They're mistaken.

I'm one of those people that has found Ember intriguing and have also found the getting started/documentation lacking and can understand people's frustrations in the original thread and in this HN thread.

It's strange to me that you're trying so hard and making so many posts to basically fight and counter anyone and everyone in this thread (including the original forum post)..

Try being a little more positive and view the feedback not as an attack against you but as suggestions for improvement from people who are legitimately trying to help. Spend your energy saying less "no one understands me, he was rude to me in the forum post, you guys are all misunderstanding me, etc" and more "I/We will get this done".

Look at wycats' post about what documentation is available and how he is looking to improve it as opposed to your posts. His post is helpful and constructive and makes me want to one day give Ember another go (when documentation improves). Your posts are all "No no no. He doesn't speak like a perfect gentleman when addressing me and I wish to challenge him to a duel".

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#217

Post by joshstrange »

k3n wrote: post #147
joshstrange wrote: post #27

Trek is making a huge mistake IMHO. As a developer I can think of nothing more helpful than to get a "steam-of-consciousness" excerpt from our users. This is something no analytics package can tell you, if you want to make your "product" easy to use then this is the exact feedback you need. Delverworld was outlining the various pitfalls of getting started with ember.js and a core contributor shrugs it off because he…

Although he's already replied to you, I wanted to point out that a refusal to respond to a post in no way indicates whether or not the communication has been received. In other words, he's not ignoring the feedback, he's just refusing to engage in discourse which he sees as already unproductive. Quite the opposite, he sympathizes with the OP to begin with, and so he most likely read it. He just doesn't want to engage…

With all due respect I don't think that this is what happened here. That's fine if he felt no need to help, to problem is when you go out of your way to let someone, someone who is trying to learn, that you think they aren't worth your time due to the tone of their post. I understand where the OP is coming from, the frustration at trying to learn something and constantly hitting roadblocks. Was he a little sarcastic? Yes, however I would be too if I couldn't find any help. This situation was escalated by the fact that his cry for help was met with a core contributor taking the time to tell him he wasn't going to help. I would compare that to going up to a homeless man and telling him you weren't going to give him any money. There just wasn't a good reason to post something like that.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#218

Post by joshstrange »

rxcfc wrote: post #66
_ak wrote: post #38

> The tone of this topic is not in line with the civil level of discourse I'd like to maintain here, so I cannot respond. This sounds like the euphemistic version of "I don't like your attitude, so fuck off." Not exactly the answer I would want to get as a new user who is stumbling over terrible and inconsistent documentation and error messages.

I agree that Trek's response here is not very helpful. However he has spent countless hours working on Ember's documentation and the fact that it's where it is now is due to his dedication. There's clearly more work to be done and we're all very well aware of that. We've been working on a getting started tutorial but it's been slow going since all of us on the Core Team are very busy with our day jobs. We hope to get…

That may very well be true but it doesn't change the fact that his response was very negative (much more so than the OP's) and for no good reason. The OP did not say "Trek sucks, his attempt at documentation is laughable" in fact I would venture a guess that the OP had no idea who Trek was prior to his posting. This was not an attack against Trek or the work he has done but rather a frustrated programmer explaining his predicament and asking for help and Trek told him he wasn't worth his time. If that's not pouring gas on the fire I don't know what is. If I were the OP I would completely abandoned trying to learn Ember.js after a comment like that, talk about kicking a man when he is already down.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#219

Post by joshstrange »

bhauer wrote: post #58
retube wrote: post #30

Hmm. I wonder what this emberjs is? I'll just click the home page link and find out. Oh. That just gives me the discussion board, which i'm already on. A bit more looking, a bit more hovering, and.... there isn't one. Close tab.

This seems like a variant of PBSALTPH, a silly initialism I coined when I found myself ranting about product blogs that don't link to product home pages [1]. Generally speaking, any subdomain or isolated "region" of a product web site should always provide a prominent link back to the product's home page. A good option is to use the product's logo as that link. Using the logo to link to anything other than the produc…

Could not agree more, there was a post on HN about this recently[1] and I also found this[2] one when searching for the first.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5267330 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4034972

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#220

Post by anigbrowl »

trek wrote: post #181
marbletiles wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you're basically attempting is the Discourse equivalent of a StackOverflow "This question is offtopic" thread-close. Good job. What you're attempting is amateur anger management. It doesn't work like that. Your approach is almost classically designed to escalate tensions, not defuse them.

It's probably relevant to note that we haven't heard from delvarworld, who I reached out to personally explaining in greater detail why I was opting not to reply and what we could do to create a discussion we'd both want to participate in. You're only seeing the brief, public acknowledgement that I wouldn't participate despite being called out with an @ reply. The tension only escalated when people from HN decided to…

It's entirely possible that you haven't heard from delvarworld because that person felt hurt and humiliated by your public response, which may also have colored the impression made by your follow-up private communication.

It's also disingenuous to say you were called out; a third party (locks) mentioned that you were the appropriate point of contact for suggestions like this. In no way could this be construed as a challenge or mockery of you personally.

I don't wish to belabor the point so I will not comment further about it. I just urge you to take a step back and try to consider the whole conversation from the perspective of a neutral third party.

Post reply on HN