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Supreme Court sides with student in case over textbooks

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Re: Supreme Court sides with student in case over textbooks

#211

Post by PeterisP »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #200
PeterisP wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What could possibly be "hard experience" with rules lawyering? Just say no. At least here if a student believes to be seriously wronged, he can take a re-exam in front of a committee with other prof's, not involving the teacher; and prove that his knowledge is really superior to the grade given, and this has happened; but it definitely isn't the easy way out - it works in cases of malice or prejudice, but not for laz…

>What could possibly be "hard experience" with rules lawyering? Just say no. If you have a weak department leadership, and a strong dean of students (one who favors student excuses), you can have a lot of students who will successfully challenge grades on dubious grounds.

Ok, then there is some other body who really wants to do grading instead of you - then let them, if they have the authority.

If you have already graded the student according to your conscience, then you've done your job properly; and you don't need to drop down to the level of rules lawyering - in any case, the grade mostly matters as the indicator of knowledge and if somebody wants a falsified indicator to flatter himself, then let him waste his time on that. The main (only?) value of grades is as feedback; if they want to waste that feedback, then it's their loss.

Re: Supreme Court sides with student in case over textbooks

#212

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

PeterisP wrote: post #211
fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What could possibly be "hard experience" with rules lawyering? Just say no. If you have a weak department leadership, and a strong dean of students (one who favors student excuses), you can have a lot of students who will successfully challenge grades on dubious grounds.

Ok, then there is some other body who really wants to do grading instead of you - then let them, if they have the authority. If you have already graded the student according to your conscience, then you've done your job properly; and you don't need to drop down to the level of rules lawyering - in any case, the grade mostly matters as the indicator of knowledge and if somebody wants a falsified indicator to flatter h…

>If you have already graded the student according to your conscience

I don't grade according to my conscience, or at least I try very hard not to. I try to grade as fairly and objectively as I can.

>and you don't need to drop down to the level of rules lawyering

I personally try very hard not to pander to this kind of crap. I think it misses the real point and simply invites more abuse. Sometimes it takes a willingness to tell those higher than yourself in the hierarchy to sit on it and spin. That's not always easy for everyone to do.

>The main (only?) value of grades is as feedback; if they want to waste that feedback, then it's their loss.

That's mostly right. I wish it was absolutely right. But, it's naive ignore the notion that some will judge your grades as an objective indicator of ability. In some areas (medical school candidates?) competition is such that students are desperate to have only perfect grades.

Re: Supreme Court sides with student in case over textbooks

#213

Post by pdonis »

gwright wrote: post #159
pdonis wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of association is one thing. Making use of the legal privileges attached to "corporations" and "nonprofits" for uses way beyond the intent of those privileges is quite another. Yes, no large organization can get the explicit assent of every member to every official statement it makes. But that doesn't mean corporate management has carte blanche to do whatever they want with company money. But, as I posted in…

What 'legal privileges' are you talking about? Speech isn't a privilege it is a right.

The legal privileges that corporations get that individuals don't get, like being able to deduct operating expenses from their taxable income, and the legal privileges that individuals can get by forming a corporation, like being shielded from personal liability. Corporations are not the same as individuals, but saying "corporations have free speech rights" as though it were an obvious fact assumes that they are. Corporations are legal constructs, and it's up to us what rights, if any, to give them.

Re: Supreme Court sides with student in case over textbooks

#214

Post by hatberet »

mindcrime wrote: post #118
impendia wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a lecturer in a math department. I also despise the textbook industry. Would you please recommend what I might do, subject to severe limitations of (1) time and (2) political clout within my department?

Unless you're teaching at the very cutting edge where new research is emerging regularly, (in which case I imagine you'd be teaching from your own notes and journal articles anyway), then how about just intentionally using an older text and write your own exam questions? There are usually plenty of copies of "recently out of date" editions of most texts on the second-hand market, and the fundamentals of the material…

That might work at some universities, but there are a (not insignificant) number of students who simply refuse to buy used textbooks. After all, they aren't paying $20k per semester to learn old calculus!

The sad reality of the situation is that a professor's student evaluations (which do matter for things like tenure) will be negatively affected by the decision to use an old edition. Yes, sometimes it makes sense to tell an unprofitable/annoying customer to go away, but professors don't have that luxury in the university environment.

Edit: Curious why this is being down-voted. The truth hurts?

Re: Supreme Court sides with student in case over textbooks

#215

Post by hatberet »

abraininavat wrote: post #199
dalke wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our CS department head was co-author on 5 of the text books for the degree program. Several other professors were also co-authors. I don't think he needed to be bribed, I think he was whole-heartedly for it.

In most fields that would be called a "conflict of interest". When you're lucky enough to be in such a position, you're right, you generally don't need to bribe yourself.

Except that most reputable universities don't let you do that. You can use your own textbook for the course, if you want, you just can't accept any royalties for it.

Re: Supreme Court sides with student in case over textbooks

#216

Post by dalke »

hatberet wrote: post #215
abraininavat wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most fields that would be called a "conflict of interest". When you're lucky enough to be in such a position, you're right, you generally don't need to bribe yourself.

Except that most reputable universities don't let you do that. You can use your own textbook for the course, if you want, you just can't accept any royalties for it.

Are you sure about that? For example, http://tap.usf.edu/what-is-tap/state-policies/ (I went to USF not FSU, but both are Florida schools) says:

> No USF employee may receive any money in exchange for requiring a textbook. However, if the professor is the author, royalty payments may be received.

It references and quotes Florida Statutes 1004.085. "An employee may receive: ... Royalties or other compensation from sales of textbooks that include the instructor’s own writing or work."

Just in case you don't think FSU or USF are reputable, I found http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1985/10/4/sandel-donates-b... from Harvard, back in 1985:

> Harvard has no policy on whether professors can profit on the sale of texts to students in their classes. The University leaves that decision to the individual instructor, according to faculty officials.

or more recently (Harvard, 2008) http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2008/3/4/professors-find-d... :

> Since N. Gregory Mankiw returned to Harvard to teach the College’s introductory economics class, 2,278 students have filled his weekly lectures, many picking up the former Bush advisor’s best-selling textbook, “Principle of Economics” along the way. ... So, what has professor of economics Mankiw done with those profits? ... “I don’t talk about personal finances,” Mankiw said, adding that he has never considered giving the proceeds to charity.

Given that Florida law doesn't prohibit collecting royalties and that a Florida school and a Massachusetts school both allow collecting royalties from assigning one's own text books for class, I think the burden of proof is on you to show that "most reputable universities don't let you do that."

(In any case, I went to university about 20 years ago, and the laws and rules were different than. But it doesn't look like it's changed all that much.)

Re: Supreme Court sides with student in case over textbooks

#217

Post by slaxman »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #197
slaxman wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is wrong for a professor to recommend his book for his course. But it is definitely wrong for him to force his students to use them. We had a lot of profs in college who had written books and recommended them. But if you attended the classes you really didn't require the textbooks in the first place.

1. If I go to the trouble of writing a textbook, I'd do it because I felt there was something lacking in the other available texts/materials. 2. There is really no way to force a student to do anything. Disclosure: I list some printed texts and reference books as required on my syllabi. I do this because I give open-book, open-note exams; but I do not allow the use of electronic devices (except pocket calculators).

Very good point. In fact, I have noticed the exam same issue while teaching. We need to refer multiple books. There is no book which covers the entire course in an understandable manner. One has to then resort to writing his own notes for the class.
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