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"Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

discuss.emberjs.com

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Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#91

Post by rxcfc »

joshstrange wrote: post #27

Trek is making a huge mistake IMHO. As a developer I can think of nothing more helpful than to get a "steam-of-consciousness" excerpt from our users. This is something no analytics package can tell you, if you want to make your "product" easy to use then this is the exact feedback you need. Delverworld was outlining the various pitfalls of getting started with ember.js and a core contributor shrugs it off because he…

Knowing Trek, I think his frustration here is in large part with himself. He cares very deeply about giving users a good experience with Ember and knows that we aren't achieving that as well as we'd like. We've been planning and working on an improved Getting Started story for a while now but, because all of us on the Core Team are very busy with our day jobs, it's been slower going that we would have liked.

To have more people point out your shortcomings when you're already well aware of them is very frustrating. I think this is what we're seeing in Trek's response. Now that doesn't mean that I think his response is helpful - it's not. But I do want it to be clear that we do care about these issues and sometimes maybe too much.

When our new Getting Started Guide is finally released, I promise that we will do our best to address all of the different comments and complaints we receive from our users.

-Peter Wagenet, Ember Core Team Member

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#93

Post by phillmv »

trek wrote: post #78
joshstrange wrote: post #27

Trek is making a huge mistake IMHO. As a developer I can think of nothing more helpful than to get a "steam-of-consciousness" excerpt from our users. This is something no analytics package can tell you, if you want to make your "product" easy to use then this is the exact feedback you need. Delverworld was outlining the various pitfalls of getting started with ember.js and a core contributor shrugs it off because he…

I have admitted that, publicly, very often, in other topics on discuss.emberjs.com, on websites, on twitter, on videos, and elsewhere. It's no secret I'd like to improve the documentation for Ember.js and I'm already well aware of the places that people are facing difficulty right now. There's work, if people spent a moment reading the top topics in the forum, on a getting started guide with a direct call for feedbac…

"discouraging culture of dickitude", nailed it.

We have to moderate the kinds of communities we want to see and participate in. You don't have to put up with people's shit.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#94

Post by trolley »

wycats wrote: post #80

I totally agree that our getting started story could be much better. In fact, it's our primary focus as we move towards 1.0. Specifically: * We're actively working on a Getting Started Guide with live examples that walks the user through building a new application from scratch. * We're continuing to improve our guides to talk through areas that might be confusing for new developers, like the naming conventions[1] we…

This is the response that should have been made on OP's original thread in the first place (and I do see you've xposted it there now).

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#95

Post by wycats »

trolley wrote: post #94
wycats wrote: post #80

I totally agree that our getting started story could be much better. In fact, it's our primary focus as we move towards 1.0. Specifically: * We're actively working on a Getting Started Guide with live examples that walks the user through building a new application from scratch. * We're continuing to improve our guides to talk through areas that might be confusing for new developers, like the naming conventions[1] we…

This is the response that should have been made on OP's original thread in the first place (and I do see you've xposted it there now).

Totally agree. The OP posted at 4:05 a.m., when I was very much asleep. I've been a little bit less responsive this week in general as I've been participating in TAG[1] this week. I'm very sorry that our project came across as uncaring.

[1] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#96

Post by brazzy »

trek wrote: post #78
joshstrange wrote: post #27

Trek is making a huge mistake IMHO. As a developer I can think of nothing more helpful than to get a "steam-of-consciousness" excerpt from our users. This is something no analytics package can tell you, if you want to make your "product" easy to use then this is the exact feedback you need. Delverworld was outlining the various pitfalls of getting started with ember.js and a core contributor shrugs it off because he…

I have admitted that, publicly, very often, in other topics on discuss.emberjs.com, on websites, on twitter, on videos, and elsewhere. It's no secret I'd like to improve the documentation for Ember.js and I'm already well aware of the places that people are facing difficulty right now. There's work, if people spent a moment reading the top topics in the forum, on a getting started guide with a direct call for feedbac…

Sorry, but that's just ridiculous. You get some very detailed actionable feedback and flat out refuse to engage with it because it contains some mild sarcasm?

No, obviously you would not like to help unless it's 100% on your terms, and you're not even telling which terms they are. Which is not very helpful at all and, in fact, showing a considerable degree of dickitude.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#97

Post by rxcfc »

spellboots wrote: post #87
trek wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have admitted that, publicly, very often, in other topics on discuss.emberjs.com, on websites, on twitter, on videos, and elsewhere. It's no secret I'd like to improve the documentation for Ember.js and I'm already well aware of the places that people are facing difficulty right now. There's work, if people spent a moment reading the top topics in the forum, on a getting started guide with a direct call for feedbac…

I see what you're saying, and it is a fair attitude. The problem is that I think others disagree on your definition of civility; for example I am of the opinion that the post was perfectly civil, and I think others would tend to agree. You are of course free to set your own standards in your own community, however I think it would serve you well to recognize that the implied standards you are setting are extremely, e…

I think it just shows that HN likes controversy. Which is news to no one :)

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#99

Post by nsxwolf »

trek wrote: post #78
joshstrange wrote: post #27

Trek is making a huge mistake IMHO. As a developer I can think of nothing more helpful than to get a "steam-of-consciousness" excerpt from our users. This is something no analytics package can tell you, if you want to make your "product" easy to use then this is the exact feedback you need. Delverworld was outlining the various pitfalls of getting started with ember.js and a core contributor shrugs it off because he…

I have admitted that, publicly, very often, in other topics on discuss.emberjs.com, on websites, on twitter, on videos, and elsewhere. It's no secret I'd like to improve the documentation for Ember.js and I'm already well aware of the places that people are facing difficulty right now. There's work, if people spent a moment reading the top topics in the forum, on a getting started guide with a direct call for feedbac…

Where I think you went wrong is the homepage. When you see it, you get that warm, fuzzy feeling that you're about to use one of those projects that "just works", the kind that delights you with how easy it is to get up and running and makes you wonder why all software doesn't work that way.

There's a promise that getting started is "easy", and a short code snippet that gives a false sense of confidence. It just shouldn't be there if it isn't true.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#100

Post by adyio »

trek wrote: post #78
joshstrange wrote: post #27

Trek is making a huge mistake IMHO. As a developer I can think of nothing more helpful than to get a "steam-of-consciousness" excerpt from our users. This is something no analytics package can tell you, if you want to make your "product" easy to use then this is the exact feedback you need. Delverworld was outlining the various pitfalls of getting started with ember.js and a core contributor shrugs it off because he…

I have admitted that, publicly, very often, in other topics on discuss.emberjs.com, on websites, on twitter, on videos, and elsewhere. It's no secret I'd like to improve the documentation for Ember.js and I'm already well aware of the places that people are facing difficulty right now. There's work, if people spent a moment reading the top topics in the forum, on a getting started guide with a direct call for feedbac…

Your reply on the ember forum seemed packed with frustration, hence the response so far I guess.

Wouldn't it be better to include a brief note on the homepage to highlight that docs are WIP and point to other getting started resources? Just to avoid further frustrated newcomers?

Anyway, your reply here paints a more complete picture and just wanted to say thanks for your contribution to OSS.

Looking forward to the updated emberjs docs.

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