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Diamonds Are Bullshit

blog.priceonomics.com

611–620 of 774 posts

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#611
post #609
post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? Having the money to splurge on a ring is a signal of financial fitness because you have the extra money to spend on something that will 'have no return' (so the speak). It's hardly a case of 'burning of your ships.' If you have the financial security to splurge on some ridiculous ring, then it's also possible that you have the ability to just absorb the cost if you don't like the marriage. Besides, depending on…

Two people propose to you with rings that cost 25k each. One ring is resellable for 20k. One is resellable for 5k. Which one do you think is more likely to renege?

Why would two people propose?

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#612
post #166
post #132

(person I know) worked for GE (General Electric) on their industrial diamond production process back in the 90's, and I got to hear lots of fun stories from this. Diamonds that are man-made[1] are stronger (fewer imperfections) than those that are mined from the earth. Because of this, industrial diamonds tend to be man-made. (for reference, industrial diamonds when cutting hard materials, such as metals). While work…

> so they just leave De Beers to run around gouging consumers That's kind of missing the point. If diamonds were 5 bucks a piece, women would no longer be interested in receiving rings bejeweled by them. A woman wants a man who is financially secure. If you can't afford a shiny rock, you can't afford what's coming after it either, so there's no point.

From my perspective, this comment has some truth, but is a little off also.

When I was single, I found the Epstein article compelling. Then, I met the right woman, and I realized the article missed the point. If a woman you love feels good because you got her a diamond ring, then the diamond has served its purpose (to communicate that you listened to what she wanted, and got it, and that she is important). I listened to my wife, I got her a diamond ring she liked, and she has fond memories of our engagement.

My sister wanted a ring that didn't have diamonds. My brother-in-law wisely listened, got her one without diamonds, and she was happy.

If you got a great marriage out of it, and your wife has fond memories of getting engaged, then nothing about the ring really matters. If you can overpay a few thousand dollars for a ring, and get a great marriage in return, you just made the best trade of your life. What matters is that you listen to what your fiance wants, and got her something that communicates your attentiveness to her.

Whether the ring has real financial value, or diamonds are a marketing invention, is entirely irrelevant.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#613

Maybe I'm spoiled as a nerdy (and interested in nerdy) gay guy, but I pity those in this thread saying that their fiancee wouldn't listen to reason about this. It slays me that "tradition" is so important to people that they will waste such vast amounts of money and prop up such a gross, violent industry in the face of reason.

It irks me a little bit that the issue is painted as one of "reason" versus lack thereof. There is a rationality in adhering to social convention. My wife is a diamond nerd, as well as one of the most rational people you'll ever meet, and she'd explain it this way: the diamond is a test that serves various useful purposes from the perspective of the woman: 1) It demonstrates the man's ability to provide; 2) It demons…

This is bullshit. There was never any bargain. Women have kids because women want to have kids. It's not because men are pressuring them into having kids and giving everything else up against their will. Women will split up with men who don't want to have kids. I've seen it happen. Women will get baby hunger around age 35 and jump on the nearest guy, to marry him in order to use him a sperm receptacle to get pregnant with. Again, I've seen it happen. The husband doesn't owe the wife anything just because she wanted kids or because pregnancy is painful. If she wants kids, she has to be ready to pay the price without whinging about it. If you had said the husband owes it to the wife to put aside thousands of dollars for the child's education, that might have made sense, but implying that he owes her a stupid gem because she can't be giving birth and at work in the office at the same time is just wrong.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#614
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) It demonstrates the man's ability to provide; 2) It demonstrates the man's willingness to forgo the other things he could buy with the money for a gift for her that does not directly benefit him in any way; and 3) It demonstrates to the woman's peers her husband's social standing. To play devil's advocate here: If you substitute 'ring' with 'a $3k donation to redcross' you could still potentially qualify all of th…

It doesn't qualify (3), which is a very important one. I've got a daughter. She's only 4 months old, but I've had occasion to think a bit about this. I would not want her to marry someone who wasn't willing to give her a ring? Why? Reasons (1) and (2) I mentioned, sure, but also reason (3). It is the mark of a sensible man that he cares what other people think about him. People who buck social conventions sometimes b…

So you want a mindless drone for your daughter. What a shame. I'll bet you also want them to do exactly as government says and "conform" as they walk him, her and their kids into more senseless wars.

Blind conformity is one of the most dangerous behaviors a society could exhibit.

Caring about what other people think of you leads to things like joining the KKK, stockpiling guns and killing six million Jews. It's religious think.

See, me, for my daughter, I'd be proud if she married someone who suggested they take the $30,000 he would have spent on a dumb diamond ring and try their hand at starting a business. Even from failure they would grow and learn.

There is no learning from in buying a diamond ring. It does not prepare you for life in any imaginable way. It does not prepare you for economic difficulties, medical problems or to develop a good sense on financial matters. It's just plain dumb.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The psychology of diamonds only works if you pay a lot for the stone. I would posit that synthetic diamonds fail for the same reasons that knock-offs like cubic zirconiums fail. They don't deliver on the promise of the advertising. The advertising promises that your love can only be shown by spending a lot of money on this specific thing with these specific set of arbitrary selected attributes. E.g., it must come fro…

It's like believing in the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny, but for adults. What other manufactured fairy tales have huge quantities of humans swallowed hook line and sinker?

"Audiophile" gear.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#616
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Karma be damned but women as a whole are swayed more by marketing then men are To make a claim like this, I'd normally expect data, not a bunch of anecdotes. Men I know are highly swayed by marketing as well. They want expensive cars, tools, games, alcohol, and other toys. It is hard to reason about the degree to which each is influenced solely from the products that are marketed to them. It is quite a stretch for…

Think of how men are marketed to and you'll see the difference. It's not a name brand or a lifestyle, almost everything marketed to men has some sort of pragmatic function to it. Be it the big F-150 that can tow a ton, to the comfortable (yet fuel efficient!) 4-door sedan. Sport cars might be an exception for most men (although not for me). As much as you don't need it, a $2000 60" HDTV is still more functional than…

your claim implies that if a certain product (or products related in a theme such as 'pragmatism') A is marketed towards a consumer group B, then B must naturally be inclined to desire product group A.

This leads to the assumption that innate behavioral differences between genders is directly responsible for the discrepancy seen in cultural representations of gender in marketing, media, or even language.

this assumption is not only intuitively wrong, but it is directly contradicted by decades of sociological research.

Almost all of our perceived gender differences are constructed through our use of language and perpetuation of harmful, inaccurate stereotypes[0]. This means that a gender concept such as heterogeneous masculinity is self fulfilling. It simultaneously provides a standard of behavior (men should build stuff, men should be powerful, men should make lots of money, men should 'have' a woman) and is constructed by men's behavior (I made stuff, I am powerful, I make lots of money, I 'have' a woman, therefore I 'am a man').[1]

In regards to it being intuitively wrong:

You mentioned that many items that are marketed to men have a 'pragmatic' function. I'd argue that they're not always pragmatic (you mentioned sports cars), and instead, the overarching theme of most products marketed towards men(and, often by extension, most advertisements) is power.

An immediate example that comes to my mind is toy advertisements that are targeted at children. Most toys that are marketed towards boys feature an element of construction, violence, or critical thinking, while most ads targeted towards girls feature homemaking or visual arts. I don't feel the need to provide a footnote here as the google search 'gender differences in childrens' advertisements' provides a wealth of information.

These differences in advertisements are not because children who have a feminine gender identity are bad at or naturally averse to thinking critically. The disconnect between advertisements targeted at children is a clear example of marketing agencies accomplishing gender on a large scale. This is a particularly potent example because not only does it show that there _are_ differences in the way that gender is constructed, it shows that there is actually a power differential created between the two genders!

This is not to say that the marketing agencies are evil in any way - they are simply playing into a market separation that already exists because of our current construction of gender roles. However, by 'doing gender' and continuing to perpetuate our harmful stereotypes, they are in fact doing society a great disservice.

[0] West & Zimmerman, 1987, 'Doing gender'

[1] Mumby, 1998, 'Organizing Men: Power, Discourse, and the Social Construction of Masculinity(s) in the Workplace'

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#617
post #599
post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but it's impossible for me to know where in Africa the diamond is coming from, which means it's impossible to know whether or not it's a conflict diamond. I know that diamond miners in Russia or India have decent working conditions and that there's no chance of the proceeds going to fund a bloody civil war; I have no such confidence when the most specific answer the jeweler can give me regarding the stone's origi…

Is it really true (I'm not doubtful, just shocked) that the jeweller can tell you what country the diamond came from unless that country is in a particular continent?

Countries in Africa are smaller than Russia or India. Borders are crossed much more easily.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A diamond ring is a signal that is _always_ showing, unlike something like a house. It's a signal to the world that displays someone's wealth, commitment, etc. This doesn't make it right, but there are numerous human psychology reasons why this tradition endures and so many people take part in it. Writing off people who want or provide a diamond ring as mentally ill (as many people in this thread seem to be doing) is…

Man this thread is killing me. Apparently I need to start wearing my salary and Mint.com balance on a name-sticker on my shirt to attract more mates. And then when I get one, make them wear a sticker indicating that they are mine, because without that, surely they would just be scooped up by the next person looking to own another person.

Welcome to the "brutal truth" of applying economic theory and armchair psychology to human interaction. I sometimes hypothesise that the people peddling these notions do it because they really do see life as an economic system and consequently, no arguing with them would change their opinion, because they're obviously right. Meaning, I wonder if this is a simple case of "I expect others to experience things the same way I experience them". However, I can't imagine someone really thinking that way. But that's maybe because I don't.

Enjoy your stay. Good luck and have fun!

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#619
post #526

My uncle Jack Jolis, a diamond dealer/consultant who has worked for forty years in every part of the globe where diamonds are mined, bought, sold and cut, written for WSJ and testified to congress on diamonds, had this comment. His words: 'Well, one man's "bullshit" is another man's "eye of the beholder" sort of thing. It is true that of the three aspects that originally made diamonds "above the rest" and therefore d…

+1 great comment...

Especially the '"emperor has not clothes" random splotches' part ; )

There are however great differences between gold and diamonds: liquidity of the market and buy/sell price. As TFA points out you're getting scammed everytime you buy a diamond and you're getting super-scammed everytime you buy one. Not so much with gold: you buy gold at price X, you sell it 6 months later when it took 3%, you're still making a benefit (even with the margin taken by the professional vendor / buyer). With diamond if you buy one at $2000 you're lucky to be able to sell it at $600.

The other difference is can we can synthetize diamonds now. Gold not so much: the only way we know how to create synthetic gold is to start from an even rarer metal (which is hence guaranteed to be always more expensive than gold).

Unless a major discovery in physics --so important that the world as we know it would profoundly change-- we can't create gold.

If suddenly we could synthetize gold from a lower-grade metal, it means we could also synthetize silver and then copper etc. The implication in various industries would be more than major: it would be a revolution.

Now my great-grandmother gave me a nice, never mounted, one-carat diamond that I've tested and that is true: it got hidden in Europe during WWII so that the nazis wouldn't confiscate it. I love it because I know it's a real one (tested) and I know it's history. So it's "sentimental" and one day my SO shall wear it and one day my daughter... And then my daughter's daughter.

If all goes well ; )

I don't care much that it would take me anywhere from $5k to $12k to buy one. I know that if I were to sell it I wouldn't make anywhere near as that and I'd regret it anyway.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't have anything to do with financial security. Look, if your man is spending three months worth of salary on a piece of shiny rock, he is exercising poor financial judgment and that is a signal against future financial security. Women want diamonds not because of any symbolic reasons ("Diamonds are forever!") but because of reasons that are much more practical: they want to be able to show off the diamonds t…

>Women want diamonds not because of any symbolic reasons ("Diamonds are forever!") but because of reasons that are much more practical: they want to be able to show off the diamonds to their group of (female) and boost their social status among them. I suspect that the demand for diamonds for both men and women has way less to do with that kind of forward thinking (or subconscious status weighing), and way more to do…

Why do you think your argument contradicts the claim that it is about social status?

Diamonds are a sign of social status in large part because De Beers marketing has convinced them (and their friends) that it is a sign of social status.

The connection between diamonds and social status in this case is supporting evidence for the assertion that "advertising works".

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