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What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

theatlantic.com

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Re: What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

#61

Post by mcpie »

penny500 wrote: post #19
Kroem3r wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to indulge in flights of imagination, maybe try to imagine why what this guy, who seems to have every attribute of an expert in the field, says, might be true. Or even, attempt some introspection to see why you'd prefer to dismiss the article, even on a basis that is addressed in the article. Here's a comparison that mostly factors scale out: http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/SP.DYN.IMRT.IN/c…

Why assume that person is an expert? Can he prove causality, or is he confusing correlation with causation? I see no methodology. Why do students in Singapore, for instance, achieve among the highest test scores in the world with a merit-based system? Shouldn't you expect different results if the author's thesis is correct?

You misunderstood the argument.

Finland has a merit-based system just like Singapore. And Singapore has, just like Finland, made a concerted effort to provide equal access to education to all its citizens.

The argument is not to drop merit-based tests and chances based on merit. Nobody is arguing that.

The argument is that society as a whole should focus on providing equal access and chance to citizens (in this context children that go to school/university).

So whilst Singaporean education certainly is far more focussed on rote learning and the typical 'Asian Tiger' approach to labor, the system built around those approaches is very 'euro-socialist', if you will: equal access for everyone.

Re: What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

#62

Post by argonaut »

flexie wrote: post #37
argonaut wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet students in South Los Angeles start off with a lower Finnish level than students in Finland.

Well, that's an easy bet to settle. 97 percent of Finns have either Finnish, Swedish, Russian or Estonian as native language and only 0.26 percent of Finns are native English speakers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Finland

It's as easy to settle as your bet. That was the point I was demonstrating with my sarcasm.

Re: What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

#63

Post by brianchu »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #51
brianchu wrote: post #17

It's interesting that the PISA scores are always used to declare that the school system of X is vastly superior to Y, (usually some other country in comparison to America), a conclusion that ignores the fact that test scores are affected by variables other than the educational system of a country. If you correct for ethnic background, America holds up very well. Asian-Americans (including Asian-Americans from develop…

You seem to flip between immigration and "race" (I don't think it's a helpful social construct, hence the scare quotes) somewhat randomly in your post. Immigrants scoring lower makes some intuitive sense to me, they've just shifted country and probably need to learn a new language etc. which will hold them back at first. But what's that got to do with African-Americans?

Finland does not collect data on the ethnic makeup of its population, so I had to flip around with race and immigrants.

Re: What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

#64

Post by flexie »

argonaut wrote: post #62
flexie wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's an easy bet to settle. 97 percent of Finns have either Finnish, Swedish, Russian or Estonian as native language and only 0.26 percent of Finns are native English speakers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Finland

It's as easy to settle as your bet. That was the point I was demonstrating with my sarcasm.

Sorry. Got lost on me :-)

Re: What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

#65

Post by Kroem3r »

vixen99 wrote: post #24
Kroem3r wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to indulge in flights of imagination, maybe try to imagine why what this guy, who seems to have every attribute of an expert in the field, says, might be true. Or even, attempt some introspection to see why you'd prefer to dismiss the article, even on a basis that is addressed in the article. Here's a comparison that mostly factors scale out: http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/SP.DYN.IMRT.IN/c…

Trying to figure out what 'Here's a comparison that mostly factors scale out: http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/SP.DYN.IMRT.IN/co... . - again, the primary intention of the medical system in Canada is equality.' means. Primary intention? Really?

It's a nationally delivered service and one of the primary mandates is equality; of availability, of quality, etc. So, yes, really. If you're suggesting that this overlooks 'positive medical outcomes' I think you're missing the point.

Re: What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

#66

Post by recori »

What I do like in the Finnish schoolsystem is that it gives an equal chance for everyone from every background to aim for their individual dreams and goals. It does not rank people based on their welfare, but the equality in the schoolsystem gives every single child an equal chance to be whatever they want. You are not judged on your social status and income, but how hard you work for your grades and goals. Children and teenagers are not restricted when it comes to applying to schools and universities. You can even apply to the top universities of Finland if you have studied hard and have good grades. Tuition fees? Nope. And how's your income? - The schools don't care as long as you've proven that you're hardworking or talented. System takes care of the funding, students can focus on the studying.

Maybe in some countries, changing to this kind of system might be considered just an idealistic nonsense, but I believe that's what has made the Finnish schoolsystem as strong as it is - equal chance for everyone to be whatever they want to be and work hard for.

Re: What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

#67

Post by eli_gottlieb »

psionski wrote: post #58
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we can't talk about poverty. That requires critically examining the American fetishes for proprietarian, neoliberal capitalism and the inequality it drives. In fact, the problem is even deeper: it requires Americans to critically examine the cultural assumption that Life Itself is a competitive game to win or lose as individually as possible.

Anyone in the world can tell you that Americans behave like animals. A friend of mine went to the U.S.A. and came back after he witnessed how they let a poor man die in front of the hospital because he didn't have health insurance, with full disregard of the Hippocratic oath (if they even have that thing over there). I bet he'll never visit again. Anyways, we'll just have to wait and see whether co-operation is more…

I wouldn't say like animals. Animals have all kinds of social arrangements, and in fact only some very few large predators or insects are ever entirely individualistic.

It's just a society that has spent decades in the thrall of a bloody-stupid ideology, to the point that America is only now recovering the vocabulary to talk about its problems clearly.

Re: What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

#68

Post by Svip »

beloch wrote: post #5
Svip wrote: post #3

I know I might be a bit pedantic, but Finland is not part of Scandinavia; only Sweden, Denmark and Norway are. Finland is part of the Nordic countries, along with Scandinavia and Iceland. This tiny bit of research makes me concerned about the rest of the article's content. And as jared314 correctly points out; things are different in Finland compared to the United States. Moreover; remember, what is good for Finland,…

I'm not sure what you're saying... There's no point in making comparisons because the U.S. and Finland are different? Canada is much closer to Finland in PISA rankings than the U.S., but probably has more in common with the U.S. in most respects than Finland. Of course, Canada is not Finland or the U.S., and what is good for Canada may not be good for the U.S. ... Seriously, look no further than the text-book industr…

Not that bold. We should not ignore what others are doing, but we should not think that because someone else is doing well, a carbon copy of their solution will fit here. I am just saying that things are never simple.

Re: What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

#69

Post by Svip »

asynchronous13 wrote: post #7
Svip wrote: post #3

I know I might be a bit pedantic, but Finland is not part of Scandinavia; only Sweden, Denmark and Norway are. Finland is part of the Nordic countries, along with Scandinavia and Iceland. This tiny bit of research makes me concerned about the rest of the article's content. And as jared314 correctly points out; things are different in Finland compared to the United States. Moreover; remember, what is good for Finland,…

According to an English dictionary, Scandinavia may also refer to Finland. From Merriam-Webster, Scandinavia: 1) peninsula N Europe occupied by Norway & Sweden 2) Denmark, Norway, Sweden --sometimes also considered to include Iceland, the Faeroe Islands, & Finland

Your dictionary is wrong. Frankly, I've never trusted Merriam-Webster, so I don't consider that a valid source.

Including Iceland is beyond ridiculous, that's the Nordic countries!

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