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Diamonds Are Bullshit

blog.priceonomics.com

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Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#281

Post by erikpukinskis »

rayiner wrote: post #133
clicks wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) It demonstrates the man's ability to provide; 2) It demonstrates the man's willingness to forgo the other things he could buy with the money for a gift for her that does not directly benefit him in any way; and 3) It demonstrates to the woman's peers her husband's social standing. To play devil's advocate here: If you substitute 'ring' with 'a $3k donation to redcross' you could still potentially qualify all of th…

It doesn't qualify (3), which is a very important one. I've got a daughter. She's only 4 months old, but I've had occasion to think a bit about this. I would not want her to marry someone who wasn't willing to give her a ring? Why? Reasons (1) and (2) I mentioned, sure, but also reason (3). It is the mark of a sensible man that he cares what other people think about him. People who buck social conventions sometimes b…

I'm laughing because we were arguing back and forth in this thread, and your description of the type of man you want you daughter never to marry matches me exactly.

I hope you get your wish! Children often find a way to push our buttons, however.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#282

Post by eli »

stephengillie wrote: post #271
eli wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you signal the value of your bank account besides using it to buy expensive things? (And this is certainly not a gender-specific problem: consider sports cars, gold chains, or bottle service at clubs)

You could signal directly, such as an ATM receipt. I understand the point you're making -- the value of expensive things in signaling to someone you don't know . I can't see the point in marrying someone if I couldn't trust them with my bank account. Edit: I'm realizing that this is entirely from my perspective. How does a woman without earning potential display her husband's wealth to her family and friends? She ask…

Yes, it's for signaling peers, not partners. I assume most people who buy a Porche do so for the same reason: they want their community to know they have a lot of disposable income.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#283

Post by eli »

bradleyland wrote: post #279
eli wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading this very good Wired article [1] ( "Armed with inexpensive, mass-produced gems, two startups are launching an assault on the De Beers cartel. Next up: the computing industry." ) and assuming we were on the verge of a major disruption. But that was 10 years ago. Anyone know why it didn't quite work out that way? [1] http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/diamond.html

The psychology of diamonds only works if you pay a lot for the stone. I would posit that synthetic diamonds fail for the same reasons that knock-offs like cubic zirconiums fail. They don't deliver on the promise of the advertising. The advertising promises that your love can only be shown by spending a lot of money on this specific thing with these specific set of arbitrary selected attributes. E.g., it must come fro…

Sure, but part of the point of the article was that the "created" diamonds could be made that are literally indistinguishable from those found in the ground. Seems like that has the potential to disrupt the diamond cartel's stranglehold on supply.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#284

Post by drivebyacct2 »

mech4bg wrote: post #149
erikpukinskis wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I find the notion of "man as provider" to be perverse, but if I buy into your worldview for a moment... 1) Your wife can measure how much you can provide just as well by having you actually provide valuable things. Like a house. 2) Your wife can measure your unselfishness by having you buy something that is actually valuable to her but useless to you. Like daycations with her friends. There's no sense in bu…

A diamond ring is a signal that is _always_ showing, unlike something like a house. It's a signal to the world that displays someone's wealth, commitment, etc. This doesn't make it right, but there are numerous human psychology reasons why this tradition endures and so many people take part in it. Writing off people who want or provide a diamond ring as mentally ill (as many people in this thread seem to be doing) is…

Man this thread is killing me. Apparently I need to start wearing my salary and Mint.com balance on a name-sticker on my shirt to attract more mates. And then when I get one, make them wear a sticker indicating that they are mine, because without that, surely they would just be scooped up by the next person looking to own another person.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#285

Post by rayiner »

revelation wrote: post #268
rayiner wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It irks me a little bit that the issue is painted as one of "reason" versus lack thereof. There is a rationality in adhering to social convention. My wife is a diamond nerd, as well as one of the most rational people you'll ever meet, and she'd explain it this way: the diamond is a test that serves various useful purposes from the perspective of the woman: 1) It demonstrates the man's ability to provide; 2) It demons…

But all this is something that we don't say in polite company, because we have fully bought into the mythologies about marriage that are in vogue at the moment: that it's just about "love" and all that matters is a mate that makes you "happy" and that it's an arrangement that is costless to enter into and exit out of. What you so casually disregard as "mythologies of marriage" is the result of striving for equality.…

Indeed, it is arguably more of a concern for women who are more educated and thus more "equal" in relationships with men. A worry among my ambitious female friends is getting stuck in a relationship where they are both the primary caregiver children and the primary breadwinner. And it's not an idle concern. Society pushes the role of primary caregiver on women. I'm father of the year when people find out I take the night feedings, but my wife gets nothing but criticism for not breast feeding, for the kid not being sufficiently bundled up, for the kids bottle not being capped while in the stroller cup holder (this happened today).

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#286

Post by eli »

wutbrodo wrote: post #272
eli wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would look awkward tied to your finger, no? Diamonds are pretty and sparkly -- they are just radically too expensive at retail by any objective measure. Really, I don't think diamonds would be much of a problem at all if it were possible to sell them for anywhere close to what they cost.

Since when does any standard of evidence include "...tied to your finger"?

I'm not quite following you. A diamond ring communicates to your peers and acquaintances that you have money. A bank statement only does that if you go around showing it to people.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#287

Post by mattstreet »

rayiner wrote: post #115
drivebyacct2 wrote: post #17

Maybe I'm spoiled as a nerdy (and interested in nerdy) gay guy, but I pity those in this thread saying that their fiancee wouldn't listen to reason about this. It slays me that "tradition" is so important to people that they will waste such vast amounts of money and prop up such a gross, violent industry in the face of reason.

It irks me a little bit that the issue is painted as one of "reason" versus lack thereof. There is a rationality in adhering to social convention. My wife is a diamond nerd, as well as one of the most rational people you'll ever meet, and she'd explain it this way: the diamond is a test that serves various useful purposes from the perspective of the woman: 1) It demonstrates the man's ability to provide; 2) It demons…

So basically buying a ring is a shortcut to actually understanding and trusting each other.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#288

Post by overgryphon »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #249
wutbrodo wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt the point is to demonstrate financial security: Spending three months' salary on a single ring would seem to indicate financial irresponsibility more than financial security (unless it's like a rebate and you sell the ring once you're married? /s). I'm inclined to agree that you're right about the price being the point. I think it has more to do with "You're worth it to me". I still think it's utter bollocks.

Diamonds aren't popular because they have any real value. No one actually believes they do. They cost a lot and are an easily worn, thus making them perfect for their favorite hobby: making other women feel inadequate. Even women who are positively liberal on such matters are drawn to the idea of forcing their husbands to show such monetary devotion. The issue here isn't the scarcity of diamonds. It's the scarcity if…

What makes you think women, as a whole entire gender of people, enjoy making other people feel inadequate?

Perhaps if she's going to wear a ring for the rest of her life, she wants it to be a nice ring that is color neutral. Perhaps she doesn't want something cheap and easily replaceable acting as a symbol for your marriage.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#289

Post by manicdee »

Helianthus wrote: post #254
dclowd9901 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diamonds aren't popular because they have any real value. No one actually believes they do. They cost a lot and are an easily worn, thus making them perfect for their favorite hobby: making other women feel inadequate. Even women who are positively liberal on such matters are drawn to the idea of forcing their husbands to show such monetary devotion. The issue here isn't the scarcity of diamonds. It's the scarcity if…

>Charities, if you're listening, here's an idea: create uniquely identified jewelry (bracelets, necklaces) marketed as devotional donations This is actually a very interesting idea. It has I guess a few complications--are we comfortable with making generosity a commodity? I'm not at all, actually--but at the very least it would be preferable to diamond rings.

It's been done: Pink products to support breast cancer research, PRODUCT (RED) for combating AIDS in Africa.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#290

Post by drivebyacct2 »

rayiner wrote: post #200
guylhem wrote: post #178

I see people talking about various things like the (1) (2) (3) arguments for a women to evaluate a man : (1) is the ability to provide; 2) is the willingness to forgo other things (opportunity costs to talk economics) (3) "is demonstrating to the woman's peers her husband's social standing." (signalling) Raynier posted this deep down in a reply which might be lost to you if you don't read all the comments. It would b…

Its' really hard to live life stepping on eggshells worrying about injustices to other people. At the end of the day, I bet most people on this thread drive, and there is very little else that humans do that does more violence to the environment and to other humans than the use of fossil fuels. It goes far beyond that. If you're an American, your comfortable life exists because of the American government's willingnes…

The US does bad things so I can justify supporting child exploitation? Adoption is a bad choice for smart parents? Man, are you for real?
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