Supreme Court sides with student in case over textbooks • Hacker News Board

Re: Supreme Court sides with student in case over textbooks

#11

Post by arikrak » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 4:17 PM UTC

This is good news. Publishers charge US students much more than students in other (even high-income) countries. At least they shouldn't be able to legally prevent people from buying international edition books. The publishers often change the questions in those books, but there are ways to deal with this.

The old-textbook publishing market will probably decline in the near future as people move to digital and interactive options. This will be a big improvement, but the publishers will once again have control. There will be many free options available though.

Re: Supreme Court sides with student in case over textbooks

#12

Post by Shivetya » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 4:20 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #2

I'm glad, obviously. You should be able to do whatever you want with something after you purchase it. But it just makes me sad this had to get to the Supreme Court.

So, will IP on physical media be subject to this ruling? Will this accelerate us away from being able to even buy physical copies of these items?

Re: Supreme Court sides with student in case over textbooks

#13

Post by dublinben » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 4:21 PM UTC

kbutler wrote: post #10

This will push textbooks more heavily toward digital distribution, where the content will be "licensed" to an individual user, without resale rights. While I applaud digital distribution, the lack of consumer rights comparable to the first sale and fair use doctrines is a large and growing problem.

The only saving grace of digital distribution of textbooks is that it (often) allows easier pirating. The availability of inexpensive used textbooks is less crucial if free PDFs are available.

Re: Supreme Court sides with student in case over textbooks

#14

Post by throwaway1979 » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 4:22 PM UTC

mrchucklepants wrote: post #5

jrajav wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it just makes me sad this had to get to the Supreme Court. Not being a lawyer, isn't this the best result possible for consumers in terms of establishing precedent?

I would agree. After I buy it, it is mine to deal with as I please.

Not necessarily. I was from a modest family in Asia and went to high school (actually, I skipped most of high school as I studied on my own). I remember paying a few thousand rupees for a textbook. Most of these were printed on low quality paper and had soft or generic covers. I never thought that these books were cheap ... until I moved to North America. I noticed many books for my undergad costed over a hundred dollars. They were usually on better stock paper (I mention the paper quality not to justify the price difference but rather to describe to people who may not be familiar with the cheap books). Clearly, the North American textbook prices are higher than developing country prices.

Ultimately, I benefited greatly from the cheaper books. I doubt the end result is going to be a net-decrease in the price of books. Rather, some books might become inaccessible by the poor in developing countries. But what about the poor in developed countries, you ask? Hard question to answer.

Re: Supreme Court sides with student in case over textbooks

#15

Post by milesskorpen » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 4:24 PM UTC

jug6ernaut wrote: post #4

Honestly I don't know how i feel about this. As a recent grad i know full well how high prices are for text books, i would do everything possible to prevent having to buy them. I personally thing the requirement to always have a new textbook(that years version) is more ridiculous then the prices they charge. I don't know where that requirement stems from, but in my opinion it is the real problem. But with that said I…

The new text book thing isn't a requirement — but (a) professors get copies of the new books for free and (b) the publishers make just enough changes between editions to make it hard to use old versions (different question, vocab words, etc.), so that teachers prefer all students to have the same version ... and this is only an option for the new books.

Text books are somewhat irrelevant however — the Court upholding the first sale doctrine is fantastic, and hopefully will open the doors for lots more exporting / importing.

Re: Supreme Court sides with student in case over textbooks

#16

Post by binarycrusader » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 4:26 PM UTC

DoubleMalt wrote: post #7

It is hard to overestimate the importance of this decision. Had it gone the other way it would have been an utter disaster and contrary to every common sense Still it concerns me that 3 judges sided with the publisher. In such a landmark decision even 6 to 3 seems to close a margin for comfort.

The supreme court does not "side with" any particular party (ideally); they "side with" a specific interpretation of the law.

If you read both the court's opinion and the dissenting opinion, you'll see that the dissenting opinion is strictly based on interpretation. The supreme court not only attempts to interpret how to apply the law, but determine what congress' intent was when enacting the law.

Re: Supreme Court sides with student in case over textbooks

#17

Post by HarryHirsch » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 4:28 PM UTC

jug6ernaut wrote: post #4

Honestly I don't know how i feel about this. As a recent grad i know full well how high prices are for text books, i would do everything possible to prevent having to buy them. I personally thing the requirement to always have a new textbook(that years version) is more ridiculous then the prices they charge. I don't know where that requirement stems from, but in my opinion it is the real problem. But with that said I…

Publishers are merely exploiting the highly school-like nature of university education in the US. When I was in university, over in Europe, a long time ago, on the first day of lectures the professors would wheel in a cart of textbooks, saying these are suitable texts, go and pick the one that suits you best.

But in the US, students demand that their education is like high school, with a set text and all, and if the exercises in "Physics for Biologists", 9th edition are on a different page from "Physics for Biologists", 8th edition they complain. This is the root cause of the continuous revisions to undergraduate texts.

Re: Supreme Court sides with student in case over textbooks

#18

Post by greenyoda » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 4:31 PM UTC

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #9

The publishers will just make sure to produce a different textbook between different regions now. Just re-order the chapters a little and re-order some questions/assignments. So even if someone ships in the foreign book it will be as useless as a previous edition. In general the whole textbook industry makes me sick. But fact is that lecturers are entirely responsible for it. The publishers can only do what the lectu…

The worst offenders are the professors who write their own textbooks (even though there are dozens of better ones already available) and then use them in their courses, making money off each student. Maybe there should be conflict of interest rules in universities.

The heroes in this game are the instructors who are creating open-source textbooks.

Re: Supreme Court sides with student in case over textbooks

#19

Post by kyrra » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 4:38 PM UTC

greenyoda wrote: post #18

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #9

The publishers will just make sure to produce a different textbook between different regions now. Just re-order the chapters a little and re-order some questions/assignments. So even if someone ships in the foreign book it will be as useless as a previous edition. In general the whole textbook industry makes me sick. But fact is that lecturers are entirely responsible for it. The publishers can only do what the lectu…

The worst offenders are the professors who write their own textbooks (even though there are dozens of better ones already available) and then use them in their courses, making money off each student. Maybe there should be conflict of interest rules in universities. The heroes in this game are the instructors who are creating open-source textbooks.

I had a professor that created his own textbook that he taught out of. His lectures were him writing the textbook on the whiteboard. This was a good 1.5 hour nap every tuesday/thursday.

Re: Supreme Court sides with student in case over textbooks

#20

Post by DannyBee » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 4:39 PM UTC

binarycrusader wrote: post #16

DoubleMalt wrote: post #7

It is hard to overestimate the importance of this decision. Had it gone the other way it would have been an utter disaster and contrary to every common sense Still it concerns me that 3 judges sided with the publisher. In such a landmark decision even 6 to 3 seems to close a margin for comfort.

The supreme court does not "side with" any particular party (ideally); they "side with" a specific interpretation of the law. If you read both the court's opinion and the dissenting opinion, you'll see that the dissenting opinion is strictly based on interpretation. The supreme court not only attempts to interpret how to apply the law, but determine what congress' intent was when enacting the law.

Actually, at least 2 justices specifically do not determine congress's intent, because they do not believe it matters.

If you look, you'll see they often specifically refuse to join in footnotes/etc that cite congressional intent or history.