What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success • Hacker News Board

Re: What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

#41

Post by hristov » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 9:29 AM UTC

droithomme wrote: post #16

The author of this article would have his readers believe that out of all the things about Finland which make sense regarding their better achievement, the only element that really matters is that Finland doesn't have private schools. Stated another way, the only thing that is causing public schools to fail in the US is the existence of private schools. Eliminate private schools and suddenly the US will have achievem…

Nope, you are completely misinterpreting the article. Perhaps, if you studied in a Finish school, you would have a better understanding of what the author was trying to say.

Re: What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

#42

Post by paganel » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 9:30 AM UTC

azov wrote: post #15

The article makes it sound as if public vs private is the only way in which schools differ. Even if all schools are public, some of them are good while others are bad, and you still have to somehow select students who get to attend good ones. Soviet Union had a similar system, and selection was driven by a combination of merit exams, social status/personal connections, and corruption. This actually worked reasonably…

> Soviet Union had a similar system, and selection was driven by a combination of merit exams, social status/personal connections, and corruption

I gather that you've also attended one of these schools :) Anyway, I also come from that part of the world and I remember how my parents had to pull a lot of strings to enroll me in a better school compared to the one I had been automatically assigned to.

Re: What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

#43

Post by qznc » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 9:30 AM UTC

brianchu wrote: post #17

It's interesting that the PISA scores are always used to declare that the school system of X is vastly superior to Y, (usually some other country in comparison to America), a conclusion that ignores the fact that test scores are affected by variables other than the educational system of a country. If you correct for ethnic background, America holds up very well. Asian-Americans (including Asian-Americans from develop…

So, to improve PISA scores, do not let children immigrate.

Is there a country which drastically changed their immigration policy in the last 20 years and does regular PISA tests? Your theory predicts a corresponding change in the PISA scores.

Re: What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

#44

Post by netcan » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 9:35 AM UTC

nhaehnle wrote: post #22

brianchu wrote: post #17

It's interesting that the PISA scores are always used to declare that the school system of X is vastly superior to Y, (usually some other country in comparison to America), a conclusion that ignores the fact that test scores are affected by variables other than the educational system of a country. If you correct for ethnic background, America holds up very well. Asian-Americans (including Asian-Americans from develop…

This just underscores the headline statement of the article though, wouldn't you say? If e.g. US education policy were strongly focused on equity, chances are that those immigrants wouldn't score lower than the average. And since powerful groups would still want their children to score well, chances are that the system would change in a way that pulls everybody up rather than pushing anybody down. From the other pers…

Ethnic issues aside, I think the OP's most important point is that schools are not the only thing that goes into education. Their family, community and friends might even be more important. Imagine you took a school performing in the top 5% academically and swap the students with a school performing in the bottom 5%. Which do you think will perform better?

Universities ares someplace where this is widely accepted. Go to a good Uni because that's where the good students are. It probably works for primary schools too.

Re: What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

#45

Post by mcpie » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 9:36 AM UTC

Finland has a very quirky school system, it's nigh impossible to apply in other countries. It's also a matter of a concerted PR effort - the paper reality often looks better than what actually happens in schools. While it's very interesting and certainly still a role model, many educational professionals are slowly dropping the 'Be Finland' chorus and are starting to look elsewhere.

New Zealand seems to be the new hype.

Re: What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

#46

Post by keithpeter » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 9:41 AM UTC

carlob wrote: post #40

A very interesting read on the subject of equality and competition in education is Lorenzo Milani students' book 'Lettera a una professoressa' (Letter to a Teacher) [1]. Milani was a catholic priest that was deemed a bit too radical by the church establishment and was sent in a tiny rural community as a teacher so that he would stay away from the workers in large cities. There he developed a full time school, where o…

"The statistical and economical analysis was performed by his students as a research project."

That is the way to do it, thanks for this reference. Paulo Freire has had a similar influence in adult teaching. One quick quote from the PDF...

"I'd have you paid by piecework. So much for each child who learns one subject. Or,even better, a fine for each child who does not learn a subject. Then your eyes would always be on Gianni.

You would search out in his inattentive stare the intelligence that God has put in him, as in all children. You would fight for the child who needs you most, neglecting the gifted one, as they do in any family. You would wake up at night thinking about him and would try to invent new ways to teach him - ways that would fit his needs. You would go to fetch him from home if he did not show up for class."

Er - no, I'd just go and find another job, subject to a definition of what 'learn a subject' means! I'll print and read the whole PDF carefully but this is exactly the opposite of what the Finnish system does.

Re: What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

#47

Post by wildgift » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 9:43 AM UTC

My sister is a teacher in elementary school, in a somewhat diverse school community, and achieves high scores by focusing on equity and a community outreach to get parents involved in the classroom.

Re: What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

#48

Post by wildgift » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 9:52 AM UTC

rlpb wrote: post #39

"Instead, the public school system's teachers are trained to assess children in classrooms using independent tests they create themselves. All children receive a report card at the end of each semester, but these reports are based on individualized grading by each teacher. Periodically, the Ministry of Education tracks national progress by testing a few sample groups across a range of different schools." Children are…

"Teachers are trained to assess children in classrooms using independent tests they create themselves."

So, they do testing. They probably test more often than standardized testing.

Re: What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

#49

Post by wildgift » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 9:54 AM UTC

penny500 wrote: post #25

rtpg wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never understood this argument very well. It's not like there's some sort of centralized bottleneck, schools can scale pretty well. I would argue (this is completely speculative), however, that cities in the US are (maybe?) denser than those in Finland, and that urban planning has a tendency to lay out infrastructure in terms of area more than in terms of population in itself. Hence big cities having stuffed c…

America's demographics are far from homogeneous. Students in Palo Alto need a different approach than students 30 miles away in Oakland. You're dealing with different cultures, values, English-speaking abilities, math levels, reading levels, and on and on.

East Palo Alto exists.

Also, there are the Oakland hills, Rockridge, Claremont.

Poverty and wealth exist near each other because one depends on the other.

Re: What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

#50

Post by wildgift » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 10:10 AM UTC

DividesByZero wrote: post #33

penny500 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Can we talk about poverty? In many communities in America schools are the only places students can get something to eat." I've worked with inner city youths, and that is completely false. If that were true, we'd expect a very skinny poor population. Instead, a large percentage of America's poor are overweight.

A large percentage of the poor are overweight or obese because of the low nutritional value of cheap, readymade food.

I don't think that's the cause. I think that's just some middle class bias in the debate.

I think the real reason is that food generally costs a lot less than it used to cost, relative to housing and other expenses.

Poor people often know how to cook, out of necessity, and make the food taste better by retaining more of the fat, adding carbs like rice, and plenty of meat.

Food is sustenance, culture, entertainment, and reward all in one experience. And the price is relatively low. If you have $10, you can dine very well if you can cook.