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Resistor hack turns a Nvidia GTX690 into a Quadro K5000 or Tesla K10

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111–120 of 196 posts

Re: Resistor hack turns a Nvidia GTX690 into a Quadro K5000 or Tesla K10

#111
post #105
post #23

The corresponding reddit thread is quite insightful: "It is far cheaper to make one very good chip for the highest market, and modify it slightly for lower end markets... Now, this is the part you hate: this is the only viable alternative. There's no point demanding different designs for different market segments as that would significantly increase the cost you, the consumer, pays. You can demand chips be sold at lo…

Doesn't the fact that they're selling the same chip for a lower price mean they are profitable with that low-end price, too? I doubt they are just dumping the leftovers for the low-end, and taking a loss. Also how is this any different from the Adobe scandal in Australia from a couple of months ago? I believe the Australian government even took them, Microsoft and Apple to court over charging Australians a lot more t…

It isn't about just being profitable, it's about extracting maximum value from every customer.

Ideally, the company would haggle with each and every customer, and get each customer to pay the highest price he in particular accepts. Since haggling is not feasible in mass markets, customers get grouped in segments, where the price is set to the maximum the segment will accept.

Clearly, if you misclassify a hacker into an expensive segment you get your hardware hacked :-)

Re: Resistor hack turns a Nvidia GTX690 into a Quadro K5000 or Tesla K10

#112
post #105
post #23

The corresponding reddit thread is quite insightful: "It is far cheaper to make one very good chip for the highest market, and modify it slightly for lower end markets... Now, this is the part you hate: this is the only viable alternative. There's no point demanding different designs for different market segments as that would significantly increase the cost you, the consumer, pays. You can demand chips be sold at lo…

Doesn't the fact that they're selling the same chip for a lower price mean they are profitable with that low-end price, too? I doubt they are just dumping the leftovers for the low-end, and taking a loss. Also how is this any different from the Adobe scandal in Australia from a couple of months ago? I believe the Australian government even took them, Microsoft and Apple to court over charging Australians a lot more t…

You are thinking about chip costs as if you were selling bread or cars, where the majority cost in making the product are the marginal costs of manufacture. This is not true for microchips. The marginal cost to produce any modern Intel cpu is When the economics of making chips are $2B down to make the first one, then $25 for each that goes off the line, you cannot measure profitability like that. They need to recover R&D, and providing more expensive chips to the professional market through price discrimination is a good way to do this.

Re: Resistor hack turns a Nvidia GTX690 into a Quadro K5000 or Tesla K10

#113

Entire post mirrored here: http://imgur.com/ZJt0VmT Save it as well.

Ow, my eyes. Between the microscopic font and jpeg artifacts. HTML source of the print friendly version: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/5193769 Or less artifacty screenshot: http://i4.minus.com/itHdo0GR7zXw1.png (Sorry to steal any thunder!) Not affiliated, but minus.com doesn't compress high-res PNGs into JPEGs like imgur does (it's only at a certain size that imgur does it, but it's annoying for screenshot threa…

Here is an optimized version of that image: http://i4.minus.com/ivpBgQ8dNf5Ge.png (smaller filesize, loads quicker).

Why did you save the image with transparency?

Re: Resistor hack turns a Nvidia GTX690 into a Quadro K5000 or Tesla K10

#114
post #37

This was compared to software that ships with all the features but requires a serial number to unlock the good ones. However I think this is different, and I think modifying hardware in this way is considerably more moral than using keygens to unlock software. It's hard to exactly state why I feel that this hardware mod is entirely moral behavior while software piracy is not but it's hard to put my finger on the righ…

If you own the hardware and you did not have to sign a contract to purchase it you're probably more than within your rights to modify the hardware to your liking (some exceptions to the rule do exist for things like circumventing copyright laws, modifying equipment to function in a manner harmful to others like operating a high energy transmitter in an emergency band etc).

What you're not getting when you hack your hardware to perform outside its bounds is the guarantee from the company. For example if you're sold a processor for $X dollars clocked at 2 GHz you're receiving an implicit guarantee that for Y years the product will be capable of performing every advertised combination of operations correctly. If you have a problem with this processor it is then reasonable for you to seek support for your problem/design etc. If you notice you can run this processor at 2.5GHz which would normally cost more money and for your application nothing appears to glitch you're welcome to do so. If you later encounter issues with occasional incorrect calculations you pretty much gave up the right to complain about that issue.

A similar example might be bolts for spacecraft. Many of the bolts for these spacecraft cost 100x more than the incredibly similar bolts one could obtain at a hardware store and often times may come from a very similar production line. The reason the spacecraft bolts cost more is because they've specified a very rigid set of minimum tolerances they require and stringent tracking requirements (if a bolt fails on one part of a spacecraft you may be able to get a list of every other bolt made in that lot, get the reference samples to test and find every individual location they were placed on that and other craft). It's not necessarily that the bolts cost substantially more to make but they do cost somewhat more to verify or select each piece from the line to meet the requirements. Even though hardware store customers might be able to buy bolts with spacecraft quality performance they just didn't pay to ALWAYS get bolts with spacecraft quality performance.

That said being a hardware person I'm not sure I feel the same way about software as many of the people here. It sort of feels like the primary argument is "hardware modification feels hard to me so its different". To me it seems like where it would be acceptable to modify a piece of hardware I own I should be able to open a debugger or disassembler and patch my software to enable any feature that's inherently part of the product (or new features if I wanted to add them). Now if that breaks updates, causes me to lose work or leads to problems I'd expect to be on my own like I would with hardware.

I'm sure my opinion isn't particularly popular, but changing a resistor and changing an if( premium ) to if( true ) just really don't seem all that different from where I am.

Re: Resistor hack turns a Nvidia GTX690 into a Quadro K5000 or Tesla K10

#115
post #88
post #39

For the past few months my GeForce 450 drivers have been acting up, and my computer was actually unusable until I disabled just about all hardware accelleration for the card. Is it possible that the new drivers for this card are so unstable just because nVidia is trying to thwart this type of hack? If that's the case, totally unacceptable to cripple my machine just because they want to prevent other people from alter…

That's a very bold assertion. I don't think they would push a driver out that recklessly just to stop one hardware hack. Besides, this was posted within a few days of him posting on the nVidia forums and you said yourself, the issues you had with the card are a few months in. Even if they knew about it before hand, it's not like a critical vulnerability or something; just an interesting modification to hardware (rare…

After reading a little more its clear that my original post was incorrect.

Even the original tone of "crippling" hardware seems a little far fetched to me now, it seems like these cards are just optimized differently for specific tasks (gaming, or workstation).

Still would be nice if they could get their drivers working better under windows 7.

Re: Resistor hack turns a Nvidia GTX690 into a Quadro K5000 or Tesla K10

#116
post #5

I don't entirely know how I feel about this hack. I feel like this is really similar to unlocking the "Professional" version of a piece of software with a serial key generator. Although, I understand hardware is dramatically different than software, it's using the same principal -- the same reusable bits to assemble many different products, and then just using tools to mask features unless a user pays for them. Then…

I see it this way: were they giving the cards for free, they wouldn't ever disable features to create different models. In this magic world everyone would get to use the 100% of what the most current technology can do. The only reason they limit their cards is to extract more money out of the economic system. It feels wrong to us because brains don't reason via market economics. You can feel the waste in this solution, but it's the inefficiency inherent in the market economy.

With SaaS it sometimes feels kind of different probably because we really do see it as a service (as it states in the name, btw.). and feel that the company offering us the service deserves more compensation for more things they do for us.

Re: Resistor hack turns a Nvidia GTX690 into a Quadro K5000 or Tesla K10

#117
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a good point. Something I really wouldn't have even thought of before even though I knew about the hard drives part. In the post he says: "the GTX 690 and the Quadro K5000 (same GPU) and, get this... the K5000 is only single GPU and clocked some 25-30% slower then the gaming card, what a joke" so wouldn't it be downgrading the card to make it usable on linux? maybe not idk much about linux, drivers, hardware…

no, he's only altering how the drivers perceive the card. Frankly, throwing in resistors to modify how it get's identified by the computer is really a hardware hack for a software problem. The drivers are stupid, and they're deliberately choosing to not use card features.

When you buy a high end card, you're buying the development time required to enable advanced features, you are not buying hardware; the silicon simply doesn't cost that much to produce. Most people do not want or need these advanced features, nor do they want to pay for them. The alternative environment has everyone paying $2000 for the same card and much fewer sales vs. premium users paying for premium features, and everyone else getting what they need at a much lower cost.

Re: Resistor hack turns a Nvidia GTX690 into a Quadro K5000 or Tesla K10

#118
post #110

I would not be surprised, if he runs into stability issues. Silicon manufacturers have long used the approach, to just manufacture the top of the line chip and then after testing, deactivate certain parts of the chip, to sell as a lower product. It was famous with AMD processors, where you were able to unlock more cores. The thing is, often those cores were disabled for a reason. I would not be surprised if a similar…

It works under windows, with NVIDIA provided drivers. Just not under Linux.

Re: Resistor hack turns a Nvidia GTX690 into a Quadro K5000 or Tesla K10

#119
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the fact that they're selling the same chip for a lower price mean they are profitable with that low-end price, too? I doubt they are just dumping the leftovers for the low-end, and taking a loss. Also how is this any different from the Adobe scandal in Australia from a couple of months ago? I believe the Australian government even took them, Microsoft and Apple to court over charging Australians a lot more t…

You are thinking about chip costs as if you were selling bread or cars, where the majority cost in making the product are the marginal costs of manufacture. This is not true for microchips. The marginal cost to produce any modern Intel cpu is When the economics of making chips are $2B down to make the first one, then $25 for each that goes off the line, you cannot measure profitability like that. They need to recover…

Making the mask is really expensive. I had an external lecturer tell me it cost about 1 million usd to make a set of masks for their silicon, I assume Intel pays way more.

Once you have the mask though, pushing out chips is cheap and easy.

Re: Resistor hack turns a Nvidia GTX690 into a Quadro K5000 or Tesla K10

#120
post #105
post #23

The corresponding reddit thread is quite insightful: "It is far cheaper to make one very good chip for the highest market, and modify it slightly for lower end markets... Now, this is the part you hate: this is the only viable alternative. There's no point demanding different designs for different market segments as that would significantly increase the cost you, the consumer, pays. You can demand chips be sold at lo…

Doesn't the fact that they're selling the same chip for a lower price mean they are profitable with that low-end price, too? I doubt they are just dumping the leftovers for the low-end, and taking a loss. Also how is this any different from the Adobe scandal in Australia from a couple of months ago? I believe the Australian government even took them, Microsoft and Apple to court over charging Australians a lot more t…

Chips with more defects can be sold on the low end rather than scrapped, making production easier and more profitable.
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