It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#161

Post by Nursie » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 5:11 PM UTC

analog wrote: post #159

Nursie wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but anecdotes are evidence, just with a very small sample size. OK, anecdotes are not good evidence, and cannot be used as evidence because they suffer from nearly all the problems that a good study accounts for and real evidence gathering processes account for and mitigate. Anecdotal data suffers from confirmation bias, from selection bias, it has a small enough sample size to be meaningless, and is as a r…

Citation provided. You'd be crazy to only use alt med for cancer treatment, but as an addition studies have shown it to be effective. http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/com...

"Available scientific evidence does not support claims that naturopathic medicine is effective for most health problems."

I wouldn't call that supporting evidence that CAM works, in fact I'd say that whole page doesn't give it any support at all, nor does it excuse naturopathy from having harmful effects -

"Substances used in alternative medical practices may have not been thoroughly tested to find out how they interact with medicines, foods, or dietary supplements. Even though some reports of interactions and harmful effects may be published, full studies of interactions and effects are not often available. There may also be lesser-known methods used, other than the ones discussed here, which could potentially cause harm. Because of these limitations, any information on ill effects below should be considered incomplete."

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#162

Post by analog » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 5:28 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #160

analog wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but if you've tried doctors and they haven't been able to help, and if you have heard of a treatment which anecdotally works, and has no reported side effects, then why wouldn't you try it. If it works for you then you still have a sample size of one but this would be good enough.

That depends on what the condition is, how trustworthy the anecdotes are and how much someone was trying to charge me for it. For instance in the case of terminal cancer, some people get ripped off by charlatans to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars. The anecdotal data around these assholes is all overwhelmingly positive and claims no side effects, because people who are ripped off and then die tend not to…

"That depends on what the condition is, how trustworthy the anecdotes are and how much someone was trying to charge me for it."

This is true for any medical treatment. You weigh up the costs, risks, benefits and then you decide if you want to go ahead with it.

There are also numerous examples of normal medicine cures that have been dreadfully harmful. Thalidomide and SSRIs to name a couple off the top of my head,

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#163

Post by analog » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 5:33 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #161

analog wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation provided. You'd be crazy to only use alt med for cancer treatment, but as an addition studies have shown it to be effective. http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/com...

"Available scientific evidence does not support claims that naturopathic medicine is effective for most health problems." I wouldn't call that supporting evidence that CAM works, in fact I'd say that whole page doesn't give it any support at all, nor does it excuse naturopathy from having harmful effects - "Substances used in alternative medical practices may have not been thoroughly tested to find out how they inter…

Nice use of selective quoting. Heres another.

"Other aspects of naturopathic medicine, like healthy nutrition, have been shown to lower the risk of illnesses such as heart disease and cancer. Some aspects of naturopathic medicine may be useful when used along with conventional medical treatment."

Like I said, you're simply choosing to ignore the evidence. If you'd like to stay ignorant of it then that's your right and your privilege.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#164

Post by splawn » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 5:33 PM UTC

api wrote: post #111

objclxt wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have a friend who's into homeopathy [...] she's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source. Like many nerds, she hates closed proprietary systems and loathes bureaucracy If your friend, or anyone else that way inclined, dislikes modern medicine because of its insular, closed nature then I urge them to support campaigns such as alltrials.net, which advocate open research across medicine. There are a nu…

I agree. But likewise, your doctor will not tell you that the psych meds they're prescribing for you may be no better than placebo for most users: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3085/do-antidepress... I really wonder what percentage of all medicine -- alternative, complimentary, mainstream, scientific, pseudo-scientific, and so on -- is placebo.

thats a great SCIENTIFIC question to ask....

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#165

Post by Nursie » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 5:36 PM UTC

analog wrote: post #162

Nursie wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends on what the condition is, how trustworthy the anecdotes are and how much someone was trying to charge me for it. For instance in the case of terminal cancer, some people get ripped off by charlatans to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars. The anecdotal data around these assholes is all overwhelmingly positive and claims no side effects, because people who are ripped off and then die tend not to…

"That depends on what the condition is, how trustworthy the anecdotes are and how much someone was trying to charge me for it." This is true for any medical treatment. You weigh up the costs, risks, benefits and then you decide if you want to go ahead with it. There are also numerous examples of normal medicine cures that have been dreadfully harmful. Thalidomide and SSRIs to name a couple off the top of my head,

"This is true for any medical treatment. You weigh up the costs, risks, benefits and then you decide if you want to go ahead with it."

Absolutely, but medical treatments should have reliable data available (not saying they always do). In contrast alt med never does (that's what makes it alt), but instead has cheerleaders and woo.

"There are also numerous examples of normal medicine cures that have been dreadfully harmful. Thalidomide and SSRIs to name a couple off the top of my head,"

Yup, and now we know the harms and don't use these things. (What's your point?). Whereas with alt-med this doesn't seem to happen.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#166

Post by dalke » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 5:38 PM UTC

analog wrote: post #66

Nursie wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't. Do you know what we call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.

Well I know several people for whom the Paleo diet has worked, and also alt medicine. I don't know why it works but it's unscientific to ignore the evidence simply because you don't understand it.

Let's say that 10% of the people who switched to a paleo diet found that it "worked". (Without knowing what "worked" means, I'll assume it's "lose weight.")

If you talk to those people for whom it worked, then great! there may be evidence there.

However, let's say that of the people who decided lose weight through other means (a low calorie diet, more exercise, gastric bypass, whatever), 10% were successful.

With this additional information, it's hard to conclude that choosing a paleo diet makes a strong difference.

In other words, looking at the success cases doesn't give a conclusion, only a possible path for followup investigation. It's unscientific to say that something "works" by only looking at the successful cases. You also need to track the failure cases (those who tried paleo but where it didn't work), and the success and failure cases for other methods.

The same for medicine. If someone tries X (aspirin, herbs, whiskey, zinc, penicillin, etc.) for the flu then gets better within a couple of days, then it doesn't mean that X actually "worked". There could be other reasons for why the person got better, like the person's own immune system. (For the record, none of those 'medicines' will work against the flu, though a few of them will help relieve some of the symptoms.)

That's why these anecdotal accounts, while true and even heart-felt, don't suffice to make a scientific conclusion.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#167

Post by Nursie » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 5:38 PM UTC

analog wrote: post #163

Nursie wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Available scientific evidence does not support claims that naturopathic medicine is effective for most health problems." I wouldn't call that supporting evidence that CAM works, in fact I'd say that whole page doesn't give it any support at all, nor does it excuse naturopathy from having harmful effects - "Substances used in alternative medical practices may have not been thoroughly tested to find out how they inter…

Nice use of selective quoting. Heres another. "Other aspects of naturopathic medicine, like healthy nutrition, have been shown to lower the risk of illnesses such as heart disease and cancer. Some aspects of naturopathic medicine may be useful when used along with conventional medical treatment." Like I said, you're simply choosing to ignore the evidence. If you'd like to stay ignorant of it then that's your right an…

Claiming decent nutrition or exercise as an aspect of CAM is disingenuous at best, and at worst a way to propagate charlatanry.

"Look, we do this common sense thing, therefore the rest of our stuff must be true!"

Eating well, getting rest and exercise, these things are not alt med, not naturopathic, not 'integrative', they are well supported aspects of evidence based medicine.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#168

Post by dalke » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 5:54 PM UTC

analog wrote: post #163

Nursie wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Available scientific evidence does not support claims that naturopathic medicine is effective for most health problems." I wouldn't call that supporting evidence that CAM works, in fact I'd say that whole page doesn't give it any support at all, nor does it excuse naturopathy from having harmful effects - "Substances used in alternative medical practices may have not been thoroughly tested to find out how they inter…

Nice use of selective quoting. Heres another. "Other aspects of naturopathic medicine, like healthy nutrition, have been shown to lower the risk of illnesses such as heart disease and cancer. Some aspects of naturopathic medicine may be useful when used along with conventional medical treatment." Like I said, you're simply choosing to ignore the evidence. If you'd like to stay ignorant of it then that's your right an…

You do realize that many doctors who don't follow naturopathic medicine also recommend "healthy nutrition", right? And that many also recommend "counseling"? These are not the sole provenance of naturopathic medicine.

They all probably recommend getting enough sleep and drinking enough water.

In a related question, what is "healthy nutrition"?

When Ayurveda says that onions "stimulate the central nervous system, and can disturb vows of celibacy" and should not be eaten as food (at least not by yogis), while nutritionists and researchers find no evidence that onions have those non-nutritional effects on the body and recommend that you can eat them if you like the taste, then whose advice should be followed, and why?

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#169

Post by dalke » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 6:12 PM UTC

api wrote: post #112

user24 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source. > conventional "industrial" medicine [is] closed source Absolutely false. Conventional medicine was "open source" before "open source" was a thing. It has peer reviewed journals exactly because of the benefits that being open brings. > [alt-med is] tolerant of differences of opinion to a much greater extent than conventional medicine. Conventional medici…

Open source is more than just open information. It's accessible information, accessible tools, and accessible discourse. Also: most of the replies on this thread have misunderstood my original post. I was not arguing for homeopathy or alt-med at all, and I do think quite a bit of it is baloney. I was explaining why people are into it, from a sociological point of view.

How is evidence-based medical information less accessible than alt-med? There's books about it at bookstores, libraries, and online, ranging from the AMA's "Family Medical Guide" up to specialized texts on just about every topic. Plus, at least some of the literature is available for free online.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#170

Post by Nursie » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 6:16 PM UTC

analog wrote: post #162

Nursie wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends on what the condition is, how trustworthy the anecdotes are and how much someone was trying to charge me for it. For instance in the case of terminal cancer, some people get ripped off by charlatans to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars. The anecdotal data around these assholes is all overwhelmingly positive and claims no side effects, because people who are ripped off and then die tend not to…

"That depends on what the condition is, how trustworthy the anecdotes are and how much someone was trying to charge me for it." This is true for any medical treatment. You weigh up the costs, risks, benefits and then you decide if you want to go ahead with it. There are also numerous examples of normal medicine cures that have been dreadfully harmful. Thalidomide and SSRIs to name a couple off the top of my head,

"There are also numerous examples of normal medicine cures that have been dreadfully harmful. Thalidomide and SSRIs to name a couple off the top of my head,"

I also want to say that this is pretty disingenuous as a statement because I named harmful CAM treatments in response to your question "if you have heard of a treatment which anecdotally works, and has no reported side effects, then why wouldn't you try it?". I was pointing out that alt med really cannot claim to have no side effects. It often does claim this, but it cannot.

Many medicines have dreadful side-effects, yes, even the ones we still use, but these are measured and quantified and (in theory) the treatments are only used if the main effect is worth it.

With alt med there often are side effects and there is no proof that any of it works, by definition.