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Pharo 2.0 Released

pharo-project.org

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Re: Pharo 2.0 Released

#51
post #38

Someone needs to put what "Pharo" is on the front page of their web site somewhere else other than just the title element in the header which I ignore most of the time. Browser tabs are usually really narrow if you have 8-9 open. :) I had to come here to learn it was a Smalltalk environment.

To be fair, it was on the link labeled Home and the link labeled About. I did have to click away from the download page to learn what it was about, but unless the whole site is single page, I don't see this as a bad thing.

Re: Pharo 2.0 Released

#52
Smalltalk is a great language/environment. I think the killer app for it right now is html5 games. You can program the server back end in pharo smalltalk, and the client frontend in amber smalltalk. On both ends, you get full interactivity, ability to inspect and change state, and the ability to debug and modify the code in real-time without any code/compile/run cycle.

Re: Pharo 2.0 Released

#53

I'm sorry, I've been turned off of pharo and smalltalk completely. Mostly due to the fact that I had it forced upon me for my Advanced Algorithms class. I don't like pharo, and I don't like smalltalk

Your loss mate.

That says more about the ability of your teacher or the fact that you have some kind of history of abuse by whoever than about the Pharo system.

I guess if he would have used Lisp, you'd dislike Lisp, if it was C++, you'd hate C++.

What are you using, out of curiosity?

Re: Pharo 2.0 Released

#54
post #47
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some sense, it "matters" as much as dozens of other "fringe" language projects (Ceylon, F#, Kotlin, etc.). It brings a different way of thinking to the table. If that way of thinking is one you like, great. If not, move onto the next one. But beyond that, I think the whole reason Pharo matters is that its team is doggedly bringing Smalltalk out of the historical context. Pharo has libraries for things like XML, JS…

While I appreciate that your comments are intended to promote Pharo, you seem to be saying that other Smalltalk implementations don't provide support for command-line applications, C FFI, a fast JIT, usable for real applications. That doesn't seem right to me.

Pharo has quite a decent set of command-line tools at hand for a Smalltalk (see also http://pharobooks.gforge.inria.fr/PharoByExampleTwo-Eng/late...). As for FFI we're about to fully integrate NativeBoost into the system which already provides decent FFI interaction on all X86 platforms: https://code.google.com/p/nativeboost/. The VM we use features a JIT, albeit not highly elaborate, it gives decent speedups. Besides that there is some research of mine going on, on how to implement the JIT native code generate at language side, which would give us the Smalltalk-level control over that piece.

Re: Pharo 2.0 Released

#55
post #45
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, even though it is ready for 2.0 it was not included in the release. If you are more interested you can have a look at the prepared jenkins images https://ci.inria.fr/rmod/job/Opal/ .

What was new in the compiler?

Cleanups and a modern implementation with proper separation of the compiler toolchain. Additionally they introduced a nice new IR representation to do more sophisticated changes. All in all it does not come with fancy new features but a more solid and clean codebase.

Re: Pharo 2.0 Released

#56
As someone with essentially no experience with Smalltalk, let me offer some criticism. (It's constructive criticism, I promise :)

I'm a CS student taking a programming languages course, and for our term project we need to learn a new programming language, write a small project in the language and write a paper on its implementation, features, strengths, weaknesses, etc. After reading about an awful lot of languages, I thought Smalltalk would be an interesting choice, at least on the implementation side, given its relatively unique image-based system, not to mention having a graphical component, essentially an IDE, at the core of the environment.

Since Pharo seemed like the most popular choice, I decided to give it a shot. I was excited to get started, so I figured I could download the "one-click" for version 1.4 and get started right away. After extracting the zip and being given a .app folder, I thought I had mistakenly downloaded the Mac version. Nope, the website clearly says "For OS X, Linux, and Windows". Right off the bat this shows that Mac is probably the "first-class citizen", and it definitely doesn't show that the developers know how to properly distribute their software for multiple platforms (whether or not it's true, that's what it looks like). Since my platform of choice is Linux, and having seen the half-hearted attempts at supporting Linux from so many vendors so many times in the past, I started to get a bad feeling.

I found the README, whose only information is to run the .sh file included. I ran it and was given the helpful message that the "Contents/Linux/pharo" file was missing. Finding that hard to believe, I navigated to where that file was supposed to be located and, sure enough, there it was. After doing some detective work, I found the reason for my missing file message was due to the pharo binary being built for 32-bit systems. NOWHERE on Pharo's home page or download page is this apparent. No warning is given to the new, unsuspecting, 64-bit-OS-having user.

If anyone involved with the Pharo project is reading this, please understand that this is unacceptable. In 2013, if some software is built for 32-bit OS's only, the user should not only be warned before they decide to download the software, but something less cryptic than a misleading "file not found" error when trying to run the software would be helpful. I guess I can't say for sure, but to me this looks like almost no effort was put into helping new users get started.

Still somewhat determined to get this thing running, I installed an incredible amount of 32-bit libraries. Still no luck. I got to the point where a "could not find module vm-display-X11" is displayed. The file does exist, it's just another case of the 32-bit library blues. I installed some additional X11 32-bit compatibility libraries, but still had no luck.

Unable to justify wasting more time getting this thing working, I just gave up. I really wanted to spend some time with Pharo, but I guess the developers don't care about newcomers who don't already know the in's and out's of the system. I'm sorry, but if you want any sort of Smalltalk comeback that I've been reading so much about, this is absolutely NOT the way to do it.

Re: Pharo 2.0 Released

#57

As someone with essentially no experience with Smalltalk, let me offer some criticism. (It's constructive criticism, I promise :) I'm a CS student taking a programming languages course, and for our term project we need to learn a new programming language, write a small project in the language and write a paper on its implementation, features, strengths, weaknesses, etc. After reading about an awful lot of languages,…

The VM compiles on 64-bit linux. There is an amd64 build I've done.

I hope that you'll be able to install that by doing apt-get pharo and be done with it in the near future.

But the 64 bit and 32 bit Linux thing is not really Pharo's fault. A ton of software give problems in Linux 64 if you don't have the 32-bit libraries.

Thanks for the feedback, it is much welcome.

In the meantime, you may be better off with a zeroconf script.

http://pharobooks.gforge.inria.fr/PharoByExampleTwo-Eng/late...

This will also give you the option to run things headless and with a set of very nice options.

Re: Pharo 2.0 Released

#58

As someone with essentially no experience with Smalltalk, let me offer some criticism. (It's constructive criticism, I promise :) I'm a CS student taking a programming languages course, and for our term project we need to learn a new programming language, write a small project in the language and write a paper on its implementation, features, strengths, weaknesses, etc. After reading about an awful lot of languages,…

Yep I can only agree with you, and there is some communication issue for the matter of the image/vm downloads.

Some measures have been taken especially if you run from the commandline use the zeroconf scripts from http://files.pharo.org/scripts. However still some issue remain that are currently not nice!

- no full 64bit support (will be addressed but with a 32bit image format this isn't that straight forward) - missing warning to install 32bit libs under linux (workaround on the way) - proper packaging (rpm / deb) which installs the dependencies is missing (also, there are some attempts there) - you have to explicitly tell the VM to run headless or not (I honestly don't know why! :D)

All in all you caught us, we mostly develop on mac, however our test infrastructure is running on linux hence imperatively Pharo has to run under linux. Yet there is some need for proper explanations, installation requirements!

Re: Pharo 2.0 Released

#59
Is this news? Just asking because I have had Pharo 2.0 installed for many months, but it was probably a beta - it would be good to have dates on download files and bundles.

I ask because I tried running "System update" and that errored off. If I am using an old version of "2" then I will go to the trouble of re-installing and reloading my little project.

Re: Pharo 2.0 Released

#60
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some sense, it "matters" as much as dozens of other "fringe" language projects (Ceylon, F#, Kotlin, etc.). It brings a different way of thinking to the table. If that way of thinking is one you like, great. If not, move onto the next one. But beyond that, I think the whole reason Pharo matters is that its team is doggedly bringing Smalltalk out of the historical context. Pharo has libraries for things like XML, JS…

You can't really put F# in that category. It's shipped with Visual Studio since 2010, and has a significant userbase.

Agreed, it also it has significant industry usage.
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