It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#71

Post by rdtsc » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:15 PM UTC

Udo wrote: post #39

JPKab wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've found that, at least amongst 20 and 30 something age groups, women tend to be more religious too. Now that is my crappy anecdotal observation. It would be interesting to see some real data on that. I'm convinced that the whole C/AM thing taps into an instinctive love of purity. We are wired to care about cleanliness and purity in our food sources. Perhaps women are wired even more this way (the fact that they ha…

I really refuse to accept that women are just "wired for faith", it sounds too similar to the Victorian notion that somehow women are naturally wired for irrationality. There has to be a social reason why this spreads among women, there is a gap somewhere in science education that leaves women more vulnerable to this. And I actually watched it spread. The transmission seems to be helped by exploiting trusted relation…

Both religious and C/AM people usually have an approachable simple, clear way of presenting their (irrational) thesis to an average person. Just like salesmen, they appeal to trust, basic needs, use the right words like (clean, pure, natural) for their approach and the right words for the opposite approach (chemical, poisonous, toxic). For homeopathy, stupid little slogans for disease models work "fight fire with fire", "fight like with like" and so on. Makes sense right...

> The transmission seems to be helped by exploiting trusted relationships among network nodes,

I understand your reaction against GP's opinion that he noticed more women in his circles are susceptible to this. I don't know what to tell you, I have the same observation. I would characterize not as "women are wired for irrationality" but maybe women are wired better for communication and for building trusting relationships.

Again, maybe I am making shit up here, this is just my silly observation. But I have noticed that women (in my circle) more so once they establish their trust in respect to other women they we more willing to accept advice such as "so and so told me homeopathy work and I trust".

Also to hammer more on the dangerous topic. I think there is self-fulfilling circular dependency between the idea that women are wired to be irrational and girl acting that way because the society already has that belief.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#72

Post by saalweachter » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:15 PM UTC

stiff wrote: post #40

saalweachter wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with herbalism is that it's the first place science-based medicine went looking for drugs. For basically any herb and effect someone ascribes to it, there have already been twenty rigorous studies, and either no statistical effect was found or the responsible chemicals were extracted, purified, concentrated, and synthesized and are now marketed under two brand names and three generics. Going to herbs dire…

Yours is a very common response I get to this - I wonder why, since there is absolutely no evidence for it. You vastly underestimate the number of plants in existence and vastly overestimate the fraction we have been able to study rigorously. You also hugely simplify the chemistry of it all, the main advantage of plants over modern medicine in its typical form is that they contain complex compounds of chemical substa…

Following the reference through from the "clinical trials" section, the Wikipedia article is a little misleading. It makes it sound like only 356/1000 random plants have been studied, but in the paper [1] the breakdown is actually:

15.7% had been tested in clinical trials; 50.9% had been tested in vitro or in vivo; 20.8% had been subject to a phytochemical study; 12.1% had no studies found in the literature search; 0.5% were "dangerous".

That's not saying only 1/3 of plants had been studied. That is saying that 87% of plants have been studied.

[1] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j.1365-2710.200...

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#73

Post by Nursie » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:16 PM UTC

analog wrote: post #66

Nursie wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't. Do you know what we call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.

Well I know several people for whom the Paleo diet has worked, and also alt medicine. I don't know why it works but it's unscientific to ignore the evidence simply because you don't understand it.

Anecdotes != evidence.

It's unscientific to elevate your anecdotes above actual studies because you subjectively feel there's something there. This is why we have studies.

I don't know why it works but it's unscientific to ignore the evidence simply because you don't understand it.

Classic. Homeopathy enthusiasts always wheel this out and it's hilarious. "Just because you don't understand how it works you shouldn't ignore it!". I don't understand how it works because it doesn't! And this has been shown over and over again!

I have no idea about the paleo diet, but if it seems to do good things for people we should first establish whether that is true and then find out how it's true. Alt med always misses step 1.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#74

Post by resu_nimda » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:16 PM UTC

Udo wrote: post #22

I'm getting kind of an asshole reputation for always arguing with friends who are deeply into C/AM. But I'm also starting to realize it's exactly like arguing with a religious person - there is absolutely nothing you can say to make them realize their faith is based on fallacies. There is absolutely no correlation between the general intelligence of a person and the ridiculousness of their belief claims. You could be…

I wonder if this disparity only arises at the high end of intellect/education. Below that, I find men and women to be indistinguishable in terms of what kind of beliefs and thoughts they will hold (gender-related issues aside).

But, it does seem that well-educated men are more likely to develop a hardline obsession with science and rationality. I think emotion and sentiment have a lot to do with it. It's easier for us to take that detached, analytic viewpoint.

Disclaimer: This is a big generalization, and there are many people to whom it does not apply, but I do believe it to hold in aggregate.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#75

Post by mangostache2 » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:17 PM UTC

vitno wrote: post #3

and this is why I wish the paleo-fanatics would stop harping on the "evolutionary based" part. I eat pretty much paleo. I avoid grains, I limit dairy consumption, I avoid a lot of sugar in my food. However, a lot of the "science" behind paleo is bullshit. The name & culture is the worst thing that could have happened to the diet. Food is important to your health. I eat a lot of vegetables, high quality meat, and avoi…

Mat Lalonde (PhD Organic Chemist, Harvard) does a good job of dispelling the bullshit Paleo arguments. At the end of the day though, he still follows a generally Paleo diet.

One of his talks: http://vimeo.com/27570335

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#76

Post by amalag » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:17 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #56

amalag wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the FDA method of approving poisons like modern medicines may not be a relevant methodology for herbs. Before you get all upset I called your favorite prescription medicine a poison, think about what it really is. A poison if taken in high doses. Ayurveda states there are 3 ways to cure disease. Food, herbs and poisons. Modern allopathy is only the third, poisons. It has very little information on how to cure through…

Everything in 'high doses' is a poison, even pure, distilled water. Herbs either contain active chemicals or they're a placebo. If they're a placebo they're as good as taking a sugar pill. If they contain active chemicals they contain unstandardised amounts and probably in concert with all sorts of other things that may or may not be helpful or harmful. Ayurveda is bullshit. QED.

Water is a poison therefore a system of health you don't understand is bullshit, great logic.

I am not going to bother arguing since you want to lump everything together in your clinical trials. "Well gee, if healthy food is good for you, let's extract the chemical from it, inject it into our body and test it, if it is really healthy we will see good effects, otherwise it must be a placebo"

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#77

Post by MDS100 » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:18 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #49

analog wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it works it's not unmitigated bullshit.

It doesn't. Do you know what we call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.

Some things do work and are not yet accepted in medicine. Herbal medicine etc.pp.

Often it's just hard to patent and/or isn't financially lucrative to get FDA approval.

Also lifestyle in general is terribly handled in medicine. MDs know nearly nothing about what matters and what they should recommend. They are decades behind the available evidence.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#78

Post by klodolph » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:18 PM UTC

stiff wrote: post #52

klodolph wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently went to the doctor and got a recommendation to try one of three different medicines. Two were "supplements" and the third one was an off-label psychiatric medication. Each drug had its own set of side effects, and I chose one of the supplements because the off-label psychiatric drug required a prescription. I just didn't think "natural" versus "artificial" was relevant. The things that concern me about her…

It's funny you mention family planning, it's actually a great example for what I am saying. Pull out might not be the best strategy for avoiding kids, but also effectively avoiding kids isn't something too heavily promoted by evolution ;) and in a sense you wouldn't do bad to stick to it if survival is the ultimate goal. You mention how modern drugs are rigorously tested, but just recently there was a big affair abou…

Yes, you can name a drug with bad side effects. FDA isn't 100% effective, my point is that the standards for herbal remedies are comparatively worse than those for "modern" drugs.

Kava has been linked to liver failure, Comfrey causes liver damage, Chaparral causes liver damage, and Pennyroyal is basically toxic. St John's Wort has so many interactions it's basically unsafe to take in conjunction with anything. On top of this, herbal medicines are often poorly-sourced, and substitutions are made overseas. The regulations just aren't good enough.

Then when you talk about the pull-out method of family planning, you say it's a good technique because you'll have kids. That's some impressive double-speak. Next you'll tell me that Caffeine is a good sleep aid because evolution wants you to be more productive.

The FDA's regulatory tools simply work better on "modern" drugs. Look at how Thalidomide was never approved for sale in the US, because the FDA said that more studies were needed. By comparison, "dietary supplements" can only be removed from the market if they show "significant or unreasonable risk". If those standards had been applied to Thalidomide, the human cost would have been terrible.

(Note: Apologies for the over-use of quote marks. "Modern" isn't quite the right term here, some of these drugs are quite old, but I'm not sure what is the right term.)

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#79

Post by Nursie » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:18 PM UTC

up_and_up wrote: post #70

Nursie wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything in 'high doses' is a poison, even pure, distilled water. Herbs either contain active chemicals or they're a placebo. If they're a placebo they're as good as taking a sugar pill. If they contain active chemicals they contain unstandardised amounts and probably in concert with all sorts of other things that may or may not be helpful or harmful. Ayurveda is bullshit. QED.

> Ayurveda is bullshit My wife is an Ayurvedic practitioner, so yes I am biased, but I dont believe in every aspect of it. I can definitely say it is not "bullshit" and it is indeed helping many of her clients. She has people who come to her, that conventional docs have literally given up on. "We cant figure out what is wrong with your digestion, theres nothing more we can try" she hears stories like that all the tim…

If there is an effect that's measurable above placebo we should absolutely find out what it is and why it works. Otherwise it's just like the rest of these things.

My statement, however, was not about whether your wife can make people feel better in ill-defined ways, it was about the ludicrous claims above on herbs and 'poison'.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#80

Post by Nursie » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:21 PM UTC

amalag wrote: post #76

Nursie wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything in 'high doses' is a poison, even pure, distilled water. Herbs either contain active chemicals or they're a placebo. If they're a placebo they're as good as taking a sugar pill. If they contain active chemicals they contain unstandardised amounts and probably in concert with all sorts of other things that may or may not be helpful or harmful. Ayurveda is bullshit. QED.

Water is a poison therefore a system of health you don't understand is bullshit, great logic. I am not going to bother arguing since you want to lump everything together in your clinical trials. "Well gee, if healthy food is good for you, let's extract the chemical from it, inject it into our body and test it, if it is really healthy we will see good effects, otherwise it must be a placebo"

You said that modern medicine is poison if taken in high doses. I pointed out that anything is a poison in high doses.

You said that Ayurveda prefers herbs over 'poison' and lumped all modern medicine in with 'poison'. So I pointed out that this is nonsense too.

If 'Ayurveda' makes these claims, then I'm sorry but it's full of bullshit.

I'm sorry if this offends you, but it really is that simple. Maybe there are other parts of what it teaches that are less fallacious, but what you've said here so far is demonstrably false.