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The madness of the bailout in Cyprus

maximise.dk

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Re: The madness of the bailout in Cyprus

#91
post #67
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what good did that 100% up to 100k EUR do people with bank accounts in Cyprus? That's the whole point. They broke the deposit guarantee. Now you really do have an unsecured bank debt.

What do you mean? Won't things described here: http://www.centralbank.gov.cy/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=8158&la... work in case of bankruptcies of these two banks?

But the banks aren't going bankrupt.

If you have 100k EUR in a bank account in Cyprus today, you're going to get 93.250k EUR on Tuesday. If instead the bank went bankrupt you'd have 100k EUR in your bank account on Tuesday too thanks to the deposit insurance. You'd be better off if the bank actually went bankrupt!

The typical pro-bailout argument at this point is that if Cyprus lets the banks go bankrupt the deposit insurance scheme (in other words, the government) won't be able to make everyone whole. That argument is a tacit admission that bank accounts really are unsecured.

Re: The madness of the bailout in Cyprus

#92
post #31

I say let them default. Can't manage your assets - go out of business. Employ shady schemes - go to jail. Now this would be fair.

Wait a second. So I lend you a thousand dollars, for a nice interest rate.

Then you go bankrupt or just disappear.

And in this dire situation I should not be allowed to collect $1 from a thousand random citizens to compensate my loss?

What an absurd concept.

Re: The madness of the bailout in Cyprus

#93

This makes me extremely uncomfortable and I don't understand how anyone could think this was a good idea. We have high unemployment across Europe, Catalunya is attempting to become independent and there is open talk in the press about a military coup if that goes through. Meanwhile, Greece elected a bunch of fascist mps, and now this? Imagine if you woke up tomorrow and 10% of your savings were gone. What would you d…

The traditional answer in this situation would have been to devalue the currency. Cyprus is not capable of doing this because they do not control the Euro. It's important to note that 10% haircut is much, much less than what would have happened if Cyprus was not under the Euro and had devalued. Just a few years ago, everyone in Iceland lost more than 50%.

Iceland lost 50%, but they put their corrupt bankers and government ministers on trial. Cyprus lost 10% and they still have the exact same cancer.

Re: The madness of the bailout in Cyprus

#94
post #82
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

So, what do you propose he should do with his money? I have a hunch your little smarty-pants speech didn't help him one bit.

Yeah, you're right, the tone is unhelpful.

My point is that there's nothing you can do with your money to ensure that it always has value, regardless of the magnitude of the crisis. There's always some risk. You can store your money in insured bank accounts, but we can see how well that's working out in Cyprus. You can store cash under your mattress, but high inflation will destroy its real value. You can buy gold and hoard it in your home, but there's no guarantee gold will be worth much, or that you'll even be allowed to keep it (see Executive Order 6102). You can buy land and if the state fails and thugs with bigger guns decide they want it more you're screwed. There's nothing you can do to eliminate all risk, and we're seeing now that risks we though were minimal (failures of deposit insurance schemes in the western world) aren't so minimal after all.

Re: The madness of the bailout in Cyprus

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have: - Stocks - Derivatives of stocks - Natural resources (oil/gold) - Derivatives of natural resources - Bonds - State bonds - Real estate - Land (without a building) - Undervalued company that owns all your stuff and you own the company (put that one in there, since it's a usual and practical way of owning real estate and more) No, let me think. Let's just stick with people pensions. So much better.

My understanding is that securities (stocks, bonds, derivatives) are under your name so you maintain ownership of the securities even if the ibank that acted as your broker goes down. (This is why money management companies maintain separate accounts for each of their clients rather than have an aggregate pool) So the Cypress banks going bankrupt wouldn't have affected these securities. The deposits on the other hand…

Your understand is wrong in practice. In fact a recent example in the US is the MF Global fraud. That is why there is the SIPC http://www.sipc.org/How/Brochure.aspx it's like the FDIC except for losses related to fraud surrounding the failure of a brokerage firm.

Re: The madness of the bailout in Cyprus

#97
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't agree with your last sentence. We've all had the profits of having banks providing liquidity (common, all that Russian money into the Cyprian economy has been great for all of Cyprus). Now that system has failed and the big guys aka the banks are just as clueless as the little guys. Do we need to rethink how our economy works? Yes. Do we need to help Cyprus, Italy, Spain? Yes. Partially because it is in out b…

It's theft, plain and simple. The Cypriot people are not being asked if they want to sacrifice their savings - it is being taken from them by force!

They don't have anything to be asked, since they're bankrupt.

Re: The madness of the bailout in Cyprus

#98
When a sovereign fails, its banks fail, and private sector losses are virtually assured. The question is who bears the burden. Roughly half the deposits in Cypriot banks, with assets five times its GDP, are of Russian, Greek, or British origin [1]. They were attracted by high deposit rates (roughly double EMU average) and a system tolerant of likely tax evaders.

>"This whole thing is entirely unfair for the people living in Cyprus. The average citizen had nothing to do with the banking sector stocking up on Greek debt, but now they have to pay for it."

Foreign deposits are flighty. The loan-for-austerity solution is too slow. The Cypriot financial minister has already noted "substantial outflows" from banks over the past few weeks [2]. Announcing a future tax would leave the burden exclusively on ordinary Cypriot depositors. This measure was intended to help the Cypriots, not burn them.

Further, the mark-downs on Greek debt is a proximal, but not the root, cause of the problem. The IMF warned Cyprus in 2011 to raise capital levels, potentially by slashing deposit rates - it did not. Ratings agencies chimed in, in 2012, that private sector losses would result if Cyprus did not increase contributions to bank capital. Complicating the situation is that 15-20 percent of Russian bank capital and nearly 10 percent of Russian corporate deposits sit in Cyprus - there was probably external pressure to keep the banks leveraged.

Pre-crisis, Cyprus stood out for its high growth (almost 4%) and low unemployment (low of 3.6% in 2008), despite a falling savings rate, rising labour costs, and a red hot real estate market following its accession into the eurozone in 2004 [3]. Today, we have a zero growth economy with a banking crisis that would have tipped its debt/GDP from 87% to 145%.

Cyprus needs a capital injection equal to half of GDP. This was never going to be painless.

>"So what do investors, businesses, and savvy savers do? They pull their money from banks in the troubled euro countries. No need to take the risk, even if it’s small."

This is unlikely - the EU banking environment is already highly re-patrimonialised. Non-financial corporate and high net worth deposits have already fled to the degree that they can. Domestic depositors are, for better or worse, less flighty (and savvy) than senior bank debt investors - hence the logic for preserving their latter at the expense of the former. Also Cypriot banks have very little senior bank debt (0.3% of assets for Laiki [4]). This is cruel, yes, and I sound with The Economist's criticism of the tax levied on minor accounts (those holding less than €100 000). But forced de-leveraging will be cruel.

Given the political constraints from Deutschland limiting the ability of the European Central Bank to launch into Fed-style monetary base expansion and its Landesbanks preventing euro-wide deposit insurance, the bank regulatory constraints imposed by a country relying on flighty deposits for financial stability, and the economic constraints of a highly-indebted nation in the middle of a geopolitical brouhaha between Greece, Turkey, and Russia slated for near zero growth in the near future, this is not a terrible deal. Note that Iceland, which was in a similar position in 2007, saw its economy crater by nearly 1/3 from 2007 to 2011, or about 9% annually. Peak (2007) to trough (2009), 3/5.

[1] http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2013/03/13/russias-cyprus-p...

[2] http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/3/83fb0dd2-8802-11e2-b011-00144...

[3] https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/longres.aspx?sk=25382.... 2011 Cypriot IMF Article IV Consultation

[4] http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2013/03/16/1425732/a-stupid-idea-...

Re: The madness of the bailout in Cyprus

#99

I don't understand how someone decided the Eurozone was a good idea. It really is probably the biggest economic disaster in modern history.

They tried it before with the Latin Monetary Union. It collapsed for a few reasons, mostly due to the fact that it was a gold and silver standard. I suppose the people who created the Euro thought that the problems with the LMU would be avoided with fiat currency.

Re: The madness of the bailout in Cyprus

#100
post #68
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealthy Russians take a 10% cut on their deposits. Cyprus is a tax haven. Or the government has to bail out the banks via debt. Only the US can do that since the world buys oil in dollars and if we devalue our currency we can spread the pain. Cyprus cannot make decisions about their currency unilaterally.

Lets call a spade a spade -- they cannot make decisions about their currency because they are using the euro and thus do not really have control over their currency.

[deleted]
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