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Federal Judge Finds National Security Letters Unconstitutional, Bans Them

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Re: Federal Judge Finds National Security Letters Unconstitutional, Bans Them

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you spoken to many Americans? I went to college in Atlanta, Georgia (a pretty liberal place as far as the South goes). A year or so after the 9/11 bombing, I remember my classmates talking about how we should turn the Middle East into a glass parking lot. Quite seriously, with zero disagreement from anyone else. This was at a well-regarded engineering school, so these weren't stupid people, and indeed they were…

I was in school next door at Georgia State about a year after that. The way I remember it was that the entire campus was basically wailing and gnashing their teeth at the prospect of war with Iraq. I don't remember anyone , except me, who was pro war (btw I'm ashamed that I supported the war back then--before I shifted to more libertarian views).

There was lots of protest to the Iraq war. Not as much as people pretend now, but still a lot.

Protest to the Afghanistan war, on the other hand, was extremely rare.

Re: Federal Judge Finds National Security Letters Unconstitutional, Bans Them

#152
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we talking about the same press that cheer-led us into the Iraq war? And on a macro scale--the same press that has basically deified Ronald Reagan? The American press has never been opposed to blowing up foreigners, because Americans believe it is our god-given right to blow up foreigners. This is true regardless of what party is in power. To the extent that there is opposition, it is rooted solely on the impact…

The press don't care because of structural reasons not because of a belief system common to Americans. Press reporting is systemically biased in favor of powerful interests that influence them by carrot and by stick.

Nerds on message boards also think that the country is outraged alongside them about TSA scans. But I listened to Talk of the Nation this week on the new TSA pocketknife policy, and the sentiment was overwhelmingly in the other direction --- "I fly with my children, so I think anything we can do to make ourself more safe...". People are angry at TSA... for relaxing restrictions on carry-on items!

I opt out of the electronic strip search at every airport. How many times do you guess I've seen someone else opting out at the same time? Zero.

Re: Federal Judge Finds National Security Letters Unconstitutional, Bans Them

#153
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "power grab" since 9/11 is mostly imagined. There is very little the President can do now that he couldn't in 1970, and as a practical matter he can do a lot less than he could in 1955.

...he can do a lot less than he could in 1955. Such as summary execution of Americans considered to be "terrorists?"

Last I checked, American citizens in America aren't being dragged in front of loalty hearings.

Killing an Arab terroris hiding in Yemen actively fighting against the US is not a summary exection. Al Awalki had plenty of chances over years to turn himself in and take advantage of due process.

Re: Federal Judge Finds National Security Letters Unconstitutional, Bans Them

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is mostly just "truthy." In reality, federal surveillance was dramatically higher during the Cold War (modulo improved technology), and the idea of the strong unitary executive dates to the founding of the republic. Stuff that you claim is "unprecedented" is anything but. The concept of "preemptive war" has no real distinguishing characteristic in an American history full of military interventions absent direct…

You're conflating drone strikes with uniformed soldiers killed on the battlefields of WWII, and I'm being truthy? Well. OK. Likewise your other thin comparisons. They lack a certain depth that cause them to ring of disingenuousness. For instance, our actions in the past at least attempted to provide some pretext of military aggression against the U.S. or its allies. You yourself called them "interventions". But, you…

I am bringing up historical context because you keep using the word "unprecedented."

We did attempt to justify the Iraq war: WMD's. No less justifiable than many of our other interventions in Latin America, Asia, etc. Spanish American war anyone? Also: since when is justification required to go to war? The test has never been more or less than "protecting our interests."

I don't think its a stretch to compare an American citizen going to Yemen to fight against America with Arab terrorists with Americans going to fight with Nazis. Indeed, the former is worse. American nazis weren't fighting against the US necessarily. They were fighting for Germany (Germany had no beef with us). People like Al Awalki are actively fighting against us and refuse to submit themselves to the criminal justice system. What due process rights should they have? "due process" has always been very flexible, not hard and fast.

Re: Federal Judge Finds National Security Letters Unconstitutional, Bans Them

#155
post #139
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama has been more or less the right-center President he was as a candidate. People who are surprised by this wishfully read too much into his rhetoric. E.g. Obama has continued interventions in Pakistan, etc, even though some people pinned their hopes on him as an "anti-war" candidate. But he was never "anti-war." He was "anti-Iraq war." He ran on a platform of "Bush took us into Iraq instead of hitting the terrori…

Obama campaigned on closing Guantanamo[1], restoring habeas corpus for "enemy combatants"[2], abolishing military commissions for detainees[3], etc. Moreover, as an Illinois state Senator, one of Obama's signature accomplishments was a reform in how prisoners were interrogated.[4] Obama made less specific pledges about reducing the state secrets privileges. You can check out how surprised some judges were when, one m…

He tried to close guantanamo and try detainees in EDVa. People in Virginia freaked. Gitmo detainees are getting habeas hearings.

Re: Federal Judge Finds National Security Letters Unconstitutional, Bans Them

#156

Fuckin' A, man! Please forgive me for that outburst. But this really puts a smile on my face. I think I'll go give more money to the EFF. Maybe rename my daughter Susan.

> Maybe rename my daughter Susan. Or just have another daughter...or son?

Maybe so, but if I had another son, I could never name him Sue. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1BJfDvSITY

Re: Federal Judge Finds National Security Letters Unconstitutional, Bans Them

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conflating drone strikes with uniformed soldiers killed on the battlefields of WWII, and I'm being truthy? Well. OK. Likewise your other thin comparisons. They lack a certain depth that cause them to ring of disingenuousness. For instance, our actions in the past at least attempted to provide some pretext of military aggression against the U.S. or its allies. You yourself called them "interventions". But, you…

I am bringing up historical context because you keep using the word "unprecedented." We did attempt to justify the Iraq war: WMD's. No less justifiable than many of our other interventions in Latin America, Asia, etc. Spanish American war anyone? Also: since when is justification required to go to war? The test has never been more or less than "protecting our interests." I don't think its a stretch to compare an Amer…

It's not that you're bringing up historical context. It's that your analogies overreach and don't make your points.

Of course we go to war for our interests. However, prior to Iraq, there was typically an existing conflict. Further, especially in more recent history, we at least attempted to manufacture some military pretext (Gulf of Tonkin, etc.) The difference with Iraq--and it's hard to believe that you really don't see this--is that there was no conflict and Iraq was not engaged in any hostile military action. We simply attacked them because of what the Executive declared they might do (WMDs or no).

The point is that it represents a new thinking and acceptance of the degree of power vested in the Executive. Even the architects of this power grab acknowledge this fundamental difference. See "Pax Americana" from the Project For The New American Century.

Edit: More specifically, see the report: "Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century"

Your rebuttal regarding drones and Nazis falls down even more. Of course if a U.S. citizen is taking up arms with a nation that is openly at war with the U.S. (as eventually was the case), and is actively engaged on the battlefield, then the U.S. is justified in making no distinction between him and the enemy.

But, that the Executive has the right to declare that a U.S. citizen is an enemy combatant and may be killed with impunity is vastly different. You may take comfort in your degree of confidence that Al Awalki was a bad guy. However, the policy does not limit the Executive to targeting only those whom you believe to be deserving.

And, that is the very problem with your brand of thinking. Nearly everyone who ascribes to it does so under the belief that these policies and laws are necessary for "security" and will apply to only the bad guys.

But, that is the very point of our form of government and the Constitutional rights that we once held dear. The government (and worse, the Executive alone) doesn't get to decide unilaterally who is guilty or not. We are all entitled to due process, as "flexible" and inconvenient as that may be at times. It is our protection against the inevitable abuse that will arise in its absence, and it is one of our most powerful protections against tyranny.

None of this makes your case in any event. Your initial argument was that the Executive has no more power than they've had in the past. The minutiae of drones vs. Nazis into which you've waded just speaks to whether you think the Executive should have such increased power. In doing so, you are actually acknowledging that they do, in fact, have it, thereby making my point.

Something else that you may not have noticed is that your historical comparisons--invalid as they are--point to various incidents across centuries in your search for precedent. But, notice that these did not all take place at one time. It is, in part, the sum total of all of these powers and abuses invested in our Executive at once that represents such a vast increase in power.

Re: Federal Judge Finds National Security Letters Unconstitutional, Bans Them

#158
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even soldiers (with guns, while under fire) are expected to act legally, and ethically where those standards differ, and we need to hold everyone - public servant or not, to the same standard. Not only does such a law (making challenging a gag a crime) clearly require authority the people would not and did not grant to the government, but applying such a law to stifle oversight of your actions is criminal - especiall…

The thing is it takes time to establish exactly what the right standards are, and it's not necessarily settled after today; there might be a circuit split or appeals to confuse the issue in the coming years. Where national security is concerned, the standards are different from those we're familiar with in criminal cases, for example in not requiring a warrant for issuance. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_…

No, the time being used to establish the right standard was being spent in Plato's day. Now we know that this is a bad way to act, AND a bad way to run a country. You can never let the watcher watch themselves. Any attempts must be punished as heavily the crimes they could start to cover up.

I go further in saying that these are powers people COULD NOT grant to government. Our legal philosophy (not just current laws) hold that there are things we cannot "agree" to - to be killed for instance, and we can't agree to something on someone else's behalf except in very limited circumstances, and until they are available to confirm those decisions themselves.

Using a NSL letter to gag an otherwise legitimate court proceeding for a period of time wouldn't remove the checks and balances of society - but making seeking redress in court illegal altogether, does. And it effectively makes us slaves - having no power to control or petition our government. As above, we couldn't agree to that.

As for support for the patriot act, 1) Bush knowingly lied about the perpetrators and circumstances of the 9/11 attacks, and the potential remedies. If this was a civilian action he'd be known as a criminal. Many people were convinced by his lies, but ultimately it was pushed through regardless of popular support. 2) It doesn't matter because you can't agree to take someone else's rights away and any government that pretends you can isn't a legitimate representative of any people.

After all, we (The citizens of UN signatories) wouldn't let India end its current "rape crisis" by simply removing women's rights to complain about being raped.

Re: Federal Judge Finds National Security Letters Unconstitutional, Bans Them

#159
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the government isn't a monolithic entity - we rely on it being many departments in many agencies all full of individual people each bringing their own ethics into play or we'd simply have an automated dictatorship - Chinese-Room style. The problem we're discussing is one governmental body trying to remove peoples' recourse to appeal to the other branches of government, specifically to avoid their work being au…

I have a lot to say about it because I'm very interested in law, as well as theories and philosophy of law. I feel these offer some important context that is otherwise missing from these discussions, and that many people are unaware of. I'm not trying to swamp your point, though.

I too am interested in law, but more with anthropological curiosity. My thinking on governance is akin to the rape model though - all that matters is if they're currently saying "No".

It looked like you were just saying that eminent people (Jefferson) had once thought the courts too powerful among the branches of government and that this had bearing on this situation via some "requires the powers to enforce their mandate" argument.

Where were you going with it?

Re: Federal Judge Finds National Security Letters Unconstitutional, Bans Them

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The press don't care because of structural reasons not because of a belief system common to Americans. Press reporting is systemically biased in favor of powerful interests that influence them by carrot and by stick.

Have you spoken to many Americans? I went to college in Atlanta, Georgia (a pretty liberal place as far as the South goes). A year or so after the 9/11 bombing, I remember my classmates talking about how we should turn the Middle East into a glass parking lot. Quite seriously, with zero disagreement from anyone else. This was at a well-regarded engineering school, so these weren't stupid people, and indeed they were…

> The media is a reflection of the beliefs of the American people.

That's backwards. For issues of political significance the beliefs of the American (or other) people are a reflection of messages produced by the media. Iraq war mongering was proliferated by the media, as desired by the state.

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