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How and why the government is stalking you

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Re: How and why the government is stalking you

#21

Post by cgag »

tzs wrote: post #20
cgag wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always shocking to me how many of the people I graduated with want to go work for 'defence' contractors/intelligence agencies like the NSA. I can't tell if people don't think about the affect they're having on the world or just don't care. I don't have a problem with cow-tipping apps, I just want people to avoid actively harming the world.

> I can't tell if people don't think about the affect they're having on the world or just don't care. Your case analysis is missing some cases.

I actually did intend to mention or that they think what those organizations do is something they want to contribute to, even if I find that frightening.

Re: How and why the government is stalking you

#22

Post by hakaaaaaaak »

I periodically get concerned about this, but I already assume that government:

(1) mostly, somewhat, has our best interests in mind, not totally, but somewhat, and

(2) not only uses fake accounts and taps lines, but has presence and/or influence at pretty much any major company like Google, Facebook, etc.

I think the right thing to do is to:

* Periodically speak up and support privacy legislation, semi-anonymously. (They can find out who you are, but don't be blatant or overly noisy, even from different accounts or locations, because that is more of a threat. Don't use Tor, Redphone, etc.)

* Realize that we have limited to no privacy when anyone can post info about you and credit card, phone/GPS data, etc. can be used/stolen.

* Know that there are politics, power trips, psychosis, and evil.

* Know that most people feel the same way you do. They don't want people killing their families and friends, and want to respect your freedom. Whether they are in government, military, or not, they are 99% trying to help. If you have family in government and military, think about them. They have your best interests in mind, usually.

I think it is fine to have these posts, but don't get too worked up about them. There is no reason to be paranoid. Just do your best with the knowledge you have, and don't act like a straight lace or a wierdo and you'll fit right in and probably won't be a victim.

If you join the militia, sell your house and build a bomb shelter in the woods full of guns, or start using cash-only without a recent purchase of a Dave Ramsey book, that's a red flag. Also, don't buy fertilizer in bulk, or from a bunch of different locations. Basically, don't be a moron.

Re: How and why the government is stalking you

#23

Post by anigbrowl »

logn wrote: post #15
anigbrowl wrote: post #6

Meh. Layer on top of this what we already know about the close relationship between mobile providers and the government, and it’s a safe bet that if the government wants to know where you and what you’re up to right now, they know. IOW the headline is just linkbait; the government can stalk you more easily than ever before, but in the text of the article comes the admission that it's not necessarily bothering to do s…

I think the implications of your second topic are more profound than you are considering. By creating these online sock puppets and fictitious lives to back them up, the government is essentially injecting fake government agents into our lives which could go deeper than any of us would normally imagine. For instance, to be taken seriously on a message board such as ours, you might need a github page. You might also n…

Espionage and counter-espionage has always functioned in an ethical gray area, by necessity. I appreciate that this fails 'the honor code' in many peoples' eyes, but I think it's better than aggressive militarism in that its ultimately far less destructive.

Re: How and why the government is stalking you

#24

Post by anigbrowl »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #9
gnosis wrote: post #8

What's even sadder is that many if not most HN users are contributing to the surveillance apparatus by building web apps and infrastructure, promoting it, and not taking a stand against it. How many of you Googlers and Facebookers (and the legions of you working for Facebook/Google wannabes) have really thought hard about what you're doing? How many of you care? How many of you honestly want to do something to stop t…

I blame a lack of historical knowledge combined with the fact that we mostly exist in harmony with our governments. First, few of us have taken the time to read accounts of how the political groups of history have used information against people. So we don't know to do addition when we have one and one. Combine that with the fact that most of us aren't engaged in any sort of activity that incumbent power would like t…

First, few of us have taken the time to read accounts of how the political groups of history have used information against people.

I question that assumption. Even people with a superficial knowledge of history are familiar with the existence of the Gestapo and the KGB; even if they're hazy on specific methods, they get the concept of a police state just fine. Just because they may not consider the US to be a police or surveillance state to the same degree that you would does not mean that the idea is alien to them.

Re: How and why the government is stalking you

#25

Post by mrschwabe »

the US government is running a large ring of puppet accounts as part of Operation Earnest Voice (OEV)--a practice commonly called “astroturfing”...

Operation Earnest voice is built to allow 50 real users to manage 10 fake accounts each. These 500 accounts appear to be from anywhere in the world they user would like, “replete with background , history, supporting details, and cyber presences that are technically, culturally and geographically consistent.” What it does, effectively, is create a network of online personas that, when working in a coordinated fashion, can control the tone and direction of just about any online conversation.

This brings to light an important consideration about the current state of social media and whether or not these massive social networks are really the answer - could be argued that it is better to be apart of smaller-scale, referral based, private networks where there is less likely to be 'infiltrations' of the variety stated here.

Unfortunately, I suspect, that HN is no exception to a program like OEV.

Re: How and why the government is stalking you

#26

Post by mrschwabe »

gnosis wrote: post #8

What's even sadder is that many if not most HN users are contributing to the surveillance apparatus by building web apps and infrastructure, promoting it, and not taking a stand against it. How many of you Googlers and Facebookers (and the legions of you working for Facebook/Google wannabes) have really thought hard about what you're doing? How many of you care? How many of you honestly want to do something to stop t…

Sadder yet is that the 'surveillance apparatus' itself may be actively involved here on HN. Heck, could be happening in this thread for all we know! That is the reality of today.

Re: How and why the government is stalking you

#27

Post by JVIDEL »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #9
gnosis wrote: post #8

What's even sadder is that many if not most HN users are contributing to the surveillance apparatus by building web apps and infrastructure, promoting it, and not taking a stand against it. How many of you Googlers and Facebookers (and the legions of you working for Facebook/Google wannabes) have really thought hard about what you're doing? How many of you care? How many of you honestly want to do something to stop t…

I blame a lack of historical knowledge combined with the fact that we mostly exist in harmony with our governments. First, few of us have taken the time to read accounts of how the political groups of history have used information against people. So we don't know to do addition when we have one and one. Combine that with the fact that most of us aren't engaged in any sort of activity that incumbent power would like t…

That guy Jan supported plain anti-democratic dictatorships and the use of espionage and murder until surprise surprise! he fell out of favor and had to suffer the same ordeals he made others go through, hardly what could happen to the average guy living in a democracy.

Put simply, he played with fired and got burned.

Re: How and why the government is stalking you

#29

Post by b1daly »

anigbrowl wrote: post #23
logn wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the implications of your second topic are more profound than you are considering. By creating these online sock puppets and fictitious lives to back them up, the government is essentially injecting fake government agents into our lives which could go deeper than any of us would normally imagine. For instance, to be taken seriously on a message board such as ours, you might need a github page. You might also n…

Espionage and counter-espionage has always functioned in an ethical gray area, by necessity. I appreciate that this fails 'the honor code' in many peoples' eyes, but I think it's better than aggressive militarism in that its ultimately far less destructive.

Thank you for saying this. What the us has done with military action is just appalling. To the extent that the US has enemies, spying and information based action is much less destructive.

I would also like to ask some of you who seem to take it as av given that any erosion of privacy, any knowledge about you by government is bad: outside of edge cases are we seeing big negative effects from the huge amount of data being collected about the population at large?

There are a lot of upsides to this infrastructure. I give Google a lot of info, but I get a lot in return.

As someone else mentioned, we have probably more personal freedom than any previous era in the us. Many US citizens lived during times when racial discrimination was codified in law!

There has always been an elite power structure in human society. The idea that the executive branch has to obey the law is pretty new.

In general, I think the ideas of human rights are so powerful, that any technology that has the power to vastly increase communication will be instrumental in their spread. It's because they are powerful, and have an obvious appeal to humans. The powers that be cannot undo the truthfulness of ideas, by any means. This is my pet theory anyway.

But I really am curious. There are a lot of super smart folks on here raising alarm bells about this. What are the scenarios where the average American brings calamity on themselves by posting a bunch of stuff online?

Re: How and why the government is stalking you

#30

Post by hp50g »

gnosis wrote: post #8

What's even sadder is that many if not most HN users are contributing to the surveillance apparatus by building web apps and infrastructure, promoting it, and not taking a stand against it. How many of you Googlers and Facebookers (and the legions of you working for Facebook/Google wannabes) have really thought hard about what you're doing? How many of you care? How many of you honestly want to do something to stop t…

There are still those of us who don't support total surveillance and will not stand for it. Were probably more traditional Unix people and not so embroiled in technology. Everyone else has been got if you ask me through media, social pressure or plain old apathy.

However it's worse than just web sites. I've worked for a nefarious company who feeds of data like theirs. I came to my senses when asked to do things which destroyed my ethics and quit to make amends.

At risk of promoting a fanatic, stallman was right for many years. Once a fanatic, then a told you so, then a visionary. I genuinely was brainwashed to think the guy was nuts until I saw it all with my own eyes.

Some things you can do:

* sign out of Facebook forever. There is no point in deleting your profile. Real friends meet you in real life.

* close your google account. It just follows you like a leaky passport.

* get a dumbphone and turn it off all day unless you need it for emergencies.

* read books instead of use e-readers.

* host your own mail and web services at home. Use SSL (with own CA), SSH and encrypt your email if sensitive.

* ask yourself is your employer really doing ethical work. No? Find somewhere else. This is the hardest bit - it took me 10 years to find somewhere ethical.

* use cash, particularly when shopping in large chains or on public transport systems.

* use Firefox only, with adblock and ghostery.

There are probably more.

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