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“Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

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Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#191
post #181
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok on fruit rollups (which I haven't personally eaten since the early 80s, but if there's still out there, cool), and fritos. Also genuine corn chips without additives and a salsa dip is very American. "RUFFLES® TAPATIO® Limon Flavored Potato Chips" At that point I think we need to define the "mainstream american diet" aka most of the stuff at the supermarket. I don't think this or banana chips quite make that cut. D…

I don't understand your point. I was answering the question "Is there any junk food out there made without dairy, soy protein extract, or wheat?" with the thought that answering that question would be useful for your son. Not to disprove or even contest the fact that there is little in the way of junk food that your son could eat. To be honest, my first thought was wasabi peas, but those contain soy. I grew up in Mia…

The grand battle plan went something like Miles claims some things excluded by paleo diet did not cause fatness when other ethnic groups ate them (also missing the point that starvation traditionally killed a fraction of the population on a pretty regular basis. Given an infinite qty of rice for a lifetime, they very well might get fat on rice. Only in America do we have infinite qty of food). My explanation was the standard American diet almost exclusively combines those "banned" ingredients with (things my son happens to be allergic to, so at home I have to eat mostly paleo for medical reasons) and also a huge amount of sugar and HFCS. Your response is technically correct that there exists a very small subset of junk food that does not contain legumes, etc, and also fits his allergies. That all is true. However, I don't think rice eating Asians are skinny because american convenience stores sell Jolly Ranchers.

I think paleo diet food is mostly very enjoyable. Don't need HFCS to smile. Or wheat or soy or dairy. I fully acknowledge a bad cook could make paleo-type food nearly inedible, but a bad cook could ruin a traditional american pizza just as well... I think its almost physically impossible not to smile when eating blueberries...

Strange gluten free fact: Some licorice candy contains wheat, some does not. Very weird but true.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#192
post #191
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your point. I was answering the question "Is there any junk food out there made without dairy, soy protein extract, or wheat?" with the thought that answering that question would be useful for your son. Not to disprove or even contest the fact that there is little in the way of junk food that your son could eat. To be honest, my first thought was wasabi peas, but those contain soy. I grew up in Mia…

The grand battle plan went something like Miles claims some things excluded by paleo diet did not cause fatness when other ethnic groups ate them (also missing the point that starvation traditionally killed a fraction of the population on a pretty regular basis. Given an infinite qty of rice for a lifetime, they very well might get fat on rice. Only in America do we have infinite qty of food). My explanation was the…

I don't care about the grand battle plan. I thought you were looking for some sort of junk food that your son could eat, so you wouldn't have to hide your own junk food eating habits while at work.

That is all.

I wasn't trying to be technical or nit picky. I wasn't trying to drum up an argument. I was trying to be helpful with what I read as a personal problem that you were having.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#193
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insulin spikes are completely relevant, since insulin signals your fat cells to take up energy from your blood stream. Now you have no energy and feel hungry again.

It doesn't work that way. Show me a study that concludes that blood glucose levels have not been meaningfully increased after a meal due to it all going straight to adipose tissue -- in humans -- and I'll show you the next Nobel Prize winner. Insulin spikes are irrelevant in so far as you will lose weight at a calorie deficit, insulin spikes or not. Also, fat can be synthesized in the absence of insulin spikes. http:…

Yes it does work that way.

Steady levels of insulin make it much easier to maintain a caloric deficit. If your blood sugar is yo-yoing all over the place, you're going to get cravings, increase your risk of bingeing, etc.

While it's easy to fall back on 'calories in, calories out', weight loss has much more to do with psychology, physiology and compliance than physics.

edit: Here's a nice review article from Nature, which tells you all you need to know: http://141.213.232.243/bitstream/2027.42/62568/1/414799a.pdf

It starts:

  Despite periods of feeding and fasting, plasma
  glucose remains in a narrow range between 4
  and 7 mM in normal individuals.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#194
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't work that way. Show me a study that concludes that blood glucose levels have not been meaningfully increased after a meal due to it all going straight to adipose tissue -- in humans -- and I'll show you the next Nobel Prize winner. Insulin spikes are irrelevant in so far as you will lose weight at a calorie deficit, insulin spikes or not. Also, fat can be synthesized in the absence of insulin spikes. http:…

Yes it does work that way. Steady levels of insulin make it much easier to maintain a caloric deficit. If your blood sugar is yo-yoing all over the place, you're going to get cravings, increase your risk of bingeing, etc. While it's easy to fall back on 'calories in, calories out', weight loss has much more to do with psychology, physiology and compliance than physics. edit: Here's a nice review article from Nature,…

You're absolutely right that losing weight has a lot to do with psychology, and that the execution of it depends on finding a method, a diet tailored to the individual's needs, to succeed.

But that diet will only result in weight loss if there is a caloric deficit, completely independent of insulin spikes. Now, the trick to achieving and maintaining that caloric deficit over a period of time is an effort that is psychologically demanding, absolutely. But the weight loss itself is pure thermodynamics.

If your interest lies in designing diets or meal plans that help people achieve their weight loss goals, your focus should rightly be the psychological aspect of it. That's the battle. But at the end of the day, a caloric deficit is necessary, whether you choose to ignore that or not.

IMHO, diet and nutrition is confusing as hell to the average person, and hiding the necessity of a caloric deficit and instead talking about "good" and "bad" foods or macronutrients, is a poor approach in the long run. But that's just my opinion. The necessity of a caloric deficit is not opinion though, it's cold hard scientifically proven fact.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#195
post #190
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Moderation in all things", says Aristotle. You've offered a different set of guidelines than the previous poster, but some of the same questions remain. What's "old" and what's "new"? Is corn new or old? What about almonds, which are toxic in the wild species, or taro which is toxic until processed? What about wheat? Wild apples are not that edible. They are too astringent; crabapples. It's only through grafting of…

""Moderation in all things", says Aristotle." Quite possibly the only thing all three of us agree with. "What's "old" and what's "new"?" I think you missed my very first line "forbid binary thinking" Eat old instead of new, doesn't mean I need to spend all day ranking Jack Daniels vs Macadamia nuts therefore I MUST abandon eating salads and stick exclusively to pizza, hot pockets, and bags of pork rinds. If at the gr…

You also ignored your suggestion to "forbid binary thinking" when you broke things up into "old" and "new". The majority of my response was to show how the terms "old" and "new" were not useful qualifiers.

Michael Pollan's "Eat food, not too much, mostly plants." is just as useful a guide, without making a needless distinction about old/new, genetics, processed/unprocessed, etc. I have no disagreements with his statement. I see nothing which you've written which gives better food advice than that statement. For example, when I wrote "but it doesn't make good sense", I meant "the use of the terms 'old' and 'new'" don't make good sense. That I disagree with your reasoning does not mean I disagree with your conclusion that plants should be preferred over pizza rolls.

You've changed the goalposts. You said "Drinking [alcohol] on a regular basis is about as stupid as eating arsenic or lead salts for kicks." I pointed out that humans have been drinking alcohol on a regular basis for 1,000s of years. Now you say "as much as heavy metals as possible." But I never said that people always drank as much alcohol as possible, only that it was part of their daily life. And still is in many cultures.

You suggest that my argument is that since paleo can't give a "detailed numerical analysis of which heavy metal is more or less toxic" then therefore we should consume heavy metals. This is of course a wrong interpretation of my view. I observe that we have cultures now and historically which drink alcohol on a daily basis. If there were a large toxic effect of "ethanol in your blood" - as there is, for example, with lead acetate - then it would be easily observed. Since it isn't observed, its dangerous effects must be far smaller than that of heavy metals.

You may have the opinion that they are of similar hazard, but that opinion is contrary to the pretty strong evidence that does exist. This makes your statement a moral statement, though I think you also want it classified as a scientific statement.

If the paleo logic concludes that daily alcohol consumption is about as toxic as lead salts, and observation shows that daily alcohol consumption is nowhere near as toxic as lead salts, then the logic behind paleo must be incorrect as a scientific theory, no? Of course, moral, cultural, and religious reasons also give valid reasons to avoid certain foods, but those don't purport to be justified by scientific reasoning.

You've also changed your previous statement from "Most of [your] meals" having a hunk of meat to just dinner, and not even every dinner. And not even a "hunk", but as part of soup, so with these changes your professed meat diet has been reduced nearly 10-fold. My statement was based solely on what you originally wrote, and not your updated description of what you actually eat.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#196
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it does work that way. Steady levels of insulin make it much easier to maintain a caloric deficit. If your blood sugar is yo-yoing all over the place, you're going to get cravings, increase your risk of bingeing, etc. While it's easy to fall back on 'calories in, calories out', weight loss has much more to do with psychology, physiology and compliance than physics. edit: Here's a nice review article from Nature,…

You're absolutely right that losing weight has a lot to do with psychology, and that the execution of it depends on finding a method, a diet tailored to the individual's needs, to succeed. But that diet will only result in weight loss if there is a caloric deficit, completely independent of insulin spikes. Now, the trick to achieving and maintaining that caloric deficit over a period of time is an effort that is psyc…

> The necessity of a caloric deficit is not opinion though, it's cold hard scientifically proven fact.

It is not that simple. If you have a calorie deficit but aren't getting enough nutrients you will get cravings but won't be able to sustain your diet. If you're addicted to sugar you will get cravings/constant hunger and won't be able to sustain your diet.

Focusing on calories ignores all of the other things (nutrients, insulin, blood sugar, motivation) that need to happen for a diet to be successful.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#197
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're absolutely right that losing weight has a lot to do with psychology, and that the execution of it depends on finding a method, a diet tailored to the individual's needs, to succeed. But that diet will only result in weight loss if there is a caloric deficit, completely independent of insulin spikes. Now, the trick to achieving and maintaining that caloric deficit over a period of time is an effort that is psyc…

> The necessity of a caloric deficit is not opinion though, it's cold hard scientifically proven fact. It is not that simple. If you have a calorie deficit but aren't getting enough nutrients you will get cravings but won't be able to sustain your diet. If you're addicted to sugar you will get cravings/constant hunger and won't be able to sustain your diet. Focusing on calories ignores all of the other things (nutrie…

> It is not that simple. If you have a calorie deficit but aren't getting enough nutrients you will get cravings but won't be able to sustain your diet.

That makes no sense. In that case, you aren't on a caloric deficit. If you aren't able to achieve a caloric deficit, then you are not on a caloric deficit.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#198
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paleo is a low-carb diet. By consequence rather than design, and it's certainly not an Atkins/ketosis diet, but the emphasis is on fish, meat and eggs. If you need to consume a standard ratio of carbs:protein:fat on the paleo diet you're going to have an oddball variation of what most people do on paleo and be eating lots and lots of squash, yams, and sweet potatoes. Some folks can handle dairy just fine and do so. S…

"Paleo is a low-carb diet." What are you eating and calling it "paleo"? Practically every meal I have ends with citrus / berries / apples / bananas / etc. Sometimes for breakfast we'll have some sliced up apples, that's 30 or so grams of carbs right there. Sometimes an afternoon snack is just a banana or a handful of grapes. At a typical Atkins level of 20 grams carb per day, I'd be screwed by the time I'm done eatin…

Diets that include grains typically expect people will get over half of their calories from carbohydrates. Atkins is the extreme opposite and is virtually a "no carb" diet as the purpose is to deplete glycogen stores and induce ketosis.

"4 parts fruit vs 1 part meat and 1 part nuts" doesn't say much because fruits can have varying amounts of carbohydrates and meats and nuts can have varying amounts of calorie-dense fat. Also how big is a "part"? Grapes and bananas are relatively high in sugar but most fruits aren't carbohydrate-dense and even then, bananas are a genetically modified domestic cultivar and definitely a product of agriculture. Same with apples.

I'm not sure you realize how aggressive you would have to be to get 1000+ calories per day from fruit and vegetable carbohydrates alone. Almost certainly, the vast majority of people on the paleo diet do not eat 4 bananas and 4 apples, a pound of carrots and 2 pounds of spinach every single day. They eat eggs. They eat almonds. They eat fatty meat. They pour olive oil on their salad. They wind up with notably less than than the 200-250-ish grams of carbohydrates that is typical of other diets.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#199
post #118
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diseases of civilization are a function of congregation, not eating grains. Obesity is the result of a caloric surplus. Cavemen didn't have that luxury.

Obesity is the result of a caloric surplus. Cavemen didn't have that luxury. Obesity epidemic is a very recent phenomenon. Are you arguing that there were no societies that had caloric surplus up until late in the XX century? Or would you say that American Samoa with obesity levels of 70% [1] somehow have the luxury of having calorie surplus, while people of Switzerland (8.2% obesity) are struggling to get enough foo…

> Are you arguing that there were no societies that had caloric surplus up until late in the XX century?

No, only that a caloric surplus is necessary to gain weight. Matter cannot be created from nothing, a surplus of energy is required to perform all the bodily functions and to also build body mass.

A people can have an abundance of food and still not get obese, if they simply don't eat too much of it, relative to their caloric expenditure.

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