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Do You Really Have to Go to College?

thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com

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Re: Do You Really Have to Go to College?

#31

Post by oinksoft »

10098 wrote: post #12
ldrex wrote: post #11

That's especially true for Russia. The quality of russian university education is extremely low. Youngsters go to uni in order to avoid mandatory enlistment. Indeed, russian army is hell, composed of criminals. So, in some countries (like, Russia) you really HAVE TO go to uni.

> russian army is hell, composed of criminals I wouldn't generalize like that. Russia is a big place. There are all sorts of things happening, and it heavily depends on where you serve. My friend is in Russian army right now, he has access to internet and posts on facebook occasionally. He's doing pretty good and the people surrounding him are all right.

Kremlin Rising, slightly dated now (2005), has a very good chapter on this, and I expect there are other more detailed works on the topic. For many enlistees, it seems the Russian Army (I don't know how this is in other branches) is a terrible place with a culture of physical and sexual abuse, not unlike a good chunk of the US prison system.

Re: Do You Really Have to Go to College?

#32

Post by w1ntermute »

xarien wrote: post #18

I met the love of my life and the mother of my child in college. The problem with these articles and the types of comments on sites such as HN is that people neglect the fact that college is an experience, and a highly subjective one at that. Too often do technocrats forget that college isn't simply an investment, but for many, it is also a consumption good, and THAT IS OK. Sure, college isn't necessarily going to ma…

You can easily be exposed to diversity and choice without going hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt.

Re: Do You Really Have to Go to College?

#33

Post by NateDad »

Stop with this no college crap.

Here's the facts: if you have no work experience and no college education, you're not even going to get a phone interview with any software company. You're just not. None of the companies I've worked for (from tiny startups to 1000+ person software companies) would look twice at your resume. They wouldn't even get so far as printing it out so they could throw it away.

You are not Mark Zuckerberg. You are not Bill Gates. Don't try to pretend you are. If you're incredibly lucky, you'll get a job as an unpaid intern at a medical device company writing Delphi for their internal systems. You may be able to work your way up from there... but it'll suck.

College was FUN. I learned a lot there. I wouldn't skip it for the world. Hell, for much of my 20's I wished I could go back to college to do it some more.

I went to a private, expensive technical school, and graduated with, yes, $30,000 in debt. If you're as smart as you think you are, you can get grants and scholarships to reduce the cost of college. And then you can pay it off a few hundred dollars a month like everyone else does... and you'll laugh, because a few hundred dollars a month isn't that bad when you're getting paid $70k+

I promise you, you'll learn a lot in college. You'll have fun. Don't listen to all the statistics about not being able to get a job or pay off loans... those are general statistics for all graduates that include all the philosophy and English and history of music majors.

You'll be graduating with SKILLS and KNOWLEDGE that can be directly applied to the JOB that you get because you are QUALIFIED, and because software companies troll job fairs at technical colleges looking for bright stars like you that will work their butts off for half the price of the old neckbeards with kids that want to go home at 5pm.

GO TO COLLEGE. IT'S AWESOME.

Re: Do You Really Have to Go to College?

#34

Post by billeh »

w1ntermute wrote: post #32
xarien wrote: post #18

I met the love of my life and the mother of my child in college. The problem with these articles and the types of comments on sites such as HN is that people neglect the fact that college is an experience, and a highly subjective one at that. Too often do technocrats forget that college isn't simply an investment, but for many, it is also a consumption good, and THAT IS OK. Sure, college isn't necessarily going to ma…

You can easily be exposed to diversity and choice without going hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt.

The best I've heard is "At least you will be able to think critically." Was that really left out of the previous 12 years' curriculum?

Re: Do You Really Have to Go to College?

#35

Post by [deleted] »

NateDad wrote: post #33

Stop with this no college crap. Here's the facts: if you have no work experience and no college education, you're not even going to get a phone interview with any software company. You're just not. None of the companies I've worked for (from tiny startups to 1000+ person software companies) would look twice at your resume. They wouldn't even get so far as printing it out so they could throw it away. You are not Mark…

[deleted]

Re: Do You Really Have to Go to College?

#36

Post by RougeFemme »

billeh wrote: post #34
w1ntermute wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can easily be exposed to diversity and choice without going hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt.

The best I've heard is "At least you will be able to think critically." Was that really left out of the previous 12 years' curriculum?

Unfortunately, in the US, with so many public schools striving to meet benchmark scores on standardized tests that require little critical thinking. . .the answer is yes, that's increasingly left out of the previous 12 years' curriculum.

Re: Do You Really Have to Go to College?

#37

Post by precisioncoder »

xarien wrote: post #18

I met the love of my life and the mother of my child in college. The problem with these articles and the types of comments on sites such as HN is that people neglect the fact that college is an experience, and a highly subjective one at that. Too often do technocrats forget that college isn't simply an investment, but for many, it is also a consumption good, and THAT IS OK. Sure, college isn't necessarily going to ma…

I think what the poster and other people say is basically there are cheaper consumption goods which would bring a better ROI. For the cost of one year of college you could travel the world, volunteer overseas, start a company, learn anything you want through self directed study, go to Europe learn a European language and take advantage of their education system. With a working visa I am eligible to attend university in Austria at a price of around 200€/year. It took me less than 6 months to learn enough German to land a job here at a total cost of under 1000€. These are just a few possibilities off the top of my head. However the big problem seems to be that it requires thinking and motivation, it's easier to take the college path since it's the current default.

Re: Do You Really Have to Go to College?

#38

Post by contingencies »

dinkumthinkum wrote: post #24
contingencies wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incorrect. This only applies to professionally acquired visas. To get what you want out of visa systems, as with any other system, it pays to consider some of the viable alternatives: subsidised skills areas (exceptions to professional work visa requirements), family and relationship based visas, investment visas, retirement visas, tourism visas where you are not working just receiving offshore income. Persistence is…

You said several words here but nothing really contradicted the parent. The parent is correct. Are there some difficult exceptions, sure, but these are ... exceptions. If you don't believe, see the gigantically complicated chart for getting a green card in the U.S. I guess, game, set, match?

Dinkum Thinkum eh? That sounds Australian. You can quite easily get a US work visa and green card if you are young, employed, and come from Australia or New Zealand, for example. That's yet another alternate route. It's in most countries' interests to make people turn themselves away. Putting some effort in and not giving up often works wonders...

Re: Do You Really Have to Go to College?

#39

Post by quesera »

NateDad wrote: post #33

Stop with this no college crap. Here's the facts: if you have no work experience and no college education, you're not even going to get a phone interview with any software company. You're just not. None of the companies I've worked for (from tiny startups to 1000+ person software companies) would look twice at your resume. They wouldn't even get so far as printing it out so they could throw it away. You are not Mark…

Working within the system is always the easiest approach, but it produces very predictable results. Some people don't get the same affirmation from following the expected path.

There are very strong arguments for and against college. The right choice depends on the temperament of the person. Unfortunately that person is rarely equipped with all of the information/maturity to make a good choice for themselves. This is a failing of parents and schools, who themselves generally don't know any better.

But the crux of the argument is that the default choice is very very often the (or a) bad one. It's an important conversation to have.

Edit: your "here's the facts" line is overemphasized, and demonstrably incorrect.

Re: Do You Really Have to Go to College?

#40

Post by geebee »

jurassic wrote: post #3
radh wrote: post #2

I think this really only applies to coding and other skill-type jobs. This wouldn't work for finance, law, and other lucrative fields -- yet. I'd like to see some case studies on someone who walks into Wall Street without a degree. That'd be interesting.

In some states it is still possible to sit for the bar without attending law school. But who would hire you, when there's a glut of credentialed attorneys with no job?

You pose a reasonable question - and I would agree that the ordinary path of getting hired into a well paid first year associate job at a law firm would probably be off the table.

But I also suspect a lot of people would hire you. The US has a glut of lawyers, no doubt, but also a huge number of people who can't afford lawyers (and are pretty screwed without them). If you were willing to work for $50 an hour or less, I suspect you'd be booked up pretty quickly.

Another thing to keep in mind - I'm actually skeptical that law school is the only good path to become a lawyer. Keep in mind how talented people from non-CS fields can become at programming. A lot of people with degrees in math and physics, or no degree for that matter, who study intensely can become truly exceptional programmers.

Some people learn much faster than others, and some people are extremely good and disciplined at self-study. Abraham Lincoln is probably the most famous lawyer who never went to college or law school. Keep in mind, you still have to pass the bar, and there are often apprenticeship requirements or other educational requirements for the non-law school route. And (like the math or physics major who becomes a programmer), many of these non-law school lawyers might very well have impressive academic credentials in other fields.

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