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“Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

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Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#101
post #92

Disclaimer: I started reading on the paleo diet about a month ago, after friends recommended it as a support for my strength & conditioning routines. I've been loosely following the guidelines for the past 2 weeks. I do see an improvement in my sleep quality and in the past week have noticed a spike in my swimming endurance. This article highlights one aspect of the scientific community that I abhor, the petty disput…

The evidence against cereals (and most especially wheat) seems in general to be much more widely accepted than that against legumes; take that as you will.

(Or to put it another way: "don't eat wheat" features in a lot more of the newfangled low-carbohydrate diets than "don't eat beans".)

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#102
post #92

Disclaimer: I started reading on the paleo diet about a month ago, after friends recommended it as a support for my strength & conditioning routines. I've been loosely following the guidelines for the past 2 weeks. I do see an improvement in my sleep quality and in the past week have noticed a spike in my swimming endurance. This article highlights one aspect of the scientific community that I abhor, the petty disput…

I'm not going to take a side, but just to answer a part of your comment on "species that just disappeared" as, apparently, an argument for saying humans might not have adapted to their new diet.

Obviously, humans have not disappeared - quite the contrary in fact - therefore they either have adapted to their new diet, or were already suited for it.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#103

I'm not a evolution scientist, so I would love to have some educated response to that : Now that we are over 6 billion humans on earth, with migration way easier and common place than before, shouldn't on the contrary human evolution been speeded up ? EDIT : I know evolution is not progressive but happen by sudden steps, but I suppose it still stands.

Migration would slow down many kinds of evolution. Lots of interesting evolution happens when you get divergence in island (literal or metaphorical) populations.

Migration does mean that any clearly beneficial changes will spread quickly, and a large population gives more chances for them to arise - lactase persistence is probably an example of this. So humanity probably does adapt quicker than it otherwise would to changes in the environment, if those changes affect most of humanity.

In the short term I'd expect to see humanity getting better at a lot of things as races intermingle and previously separate gene pools combine - a lot of things like height or fitness or intelligence seem to be combinations of many genes where "perfect" is in some sense the default; how good you are is a question of how many "bad" genes you've picked up (and most of the bad genes are recessive). I've seen anecdotal suggestion that mixed-race children are healthier (would be interested to hear if there's any proper studies of this). I suspect in the immediate term this will be a bigger effect than that of new mutant genes.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#104
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the body digested everything with 100% efficiency and didn't produce waste, and also treated all 'calories' equally, then I'd agree that thermodynamics tells us everything we need to know. But even people coming from the complete opposite end of the argument to the paleo crowd ("Eat more whole grains!") agree that the amount of heat produced by a substance when it's burnt in a calorimeter doesn't tell the full sto…

Yes, fans of either reductionist fad diet of the day are all ignorant.

Or not. I can be a fan of a reductionist diet without buying the party line on the mechanism by which it works.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#105
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they were obese it's because they had a caloric surplus (I doubt it). The laws of thermodynamics applied then, as they do now.

Your assumption about the laws of thermodynamics predicates that the "Energy out" part of the equation is not somehow effected by the type of "Energy in" (Adding wet sticks to a fire will not produce as much released energy as adding dry sticks or gasoline soaked sticks) The general argument about carbs or any food with high glycemic response is that these foods are like adding "wet sticks" to the fire. There's consi…

Your metaphor of adding wet sticks to a fire is flawed, from a thermodynamics argument. Assuming that the fire is large enough, it will dry out the wet sticks through evaporation/boiling, and the wood's total contribution to the heat ("energy out") will be unchanged.

Now, of course for the people sitting around the fire, some of the heat that would be warming them up or used for cooking is instead used to force a phase change in the water, so it won't be as much "useful" heat, but that meaning of utility - which I believe is the one you want - is outside of thermodynamics.

For what it's worth, "for some very compelling anecdotal evidence" of the thermodynamic approach, see The Hacker's Diet at http://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/ , which uses the "Rubber Bag" model. Unlike the garytaubes.com web site, the entire book and supporting materials are available for free download. The basic premise is the thermodynamic "if you eat more calories than you burn, you gain weight; if you eat fewer calories than you burn, you lose weight." (See also 'Food and fact' where "The rubber bag view of the body and considering only the calorie content of food is obviously oversimplified." and some of the complications are mentioned.)

I believe you are making a different argument, which is that you can't always measure the caloric impact of foods. Under the Hacker Diet, that makes little difference. It uses a feedback system based on weight trends rather than specific calorie counting. There's no need to know that oak combustion produces about 15MJ/kg and boiling water from room temperature takes about 3MJ/kg, because it only looks at 'is there enough heat'?

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#106
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> High Fructose Corn Syrup [1] didn't become a staple of the human die until AFAICT HFCS didn't become a staple of human diet, it just became important in the US, the rest of the world still uses _way_ more sugar than HFCS (e.g. a 60:1 rate of production in the EU).

Well. I am an American and we are the world, right....? // I jest. But if your colas are still made from sugar you are having the last laugh.

Yes, here colas are still made of sugar :) Even though... better to drink just water!

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#107
post #92

Disclaimer: I started reading on the paleo diet about a month ago, after friends recommended it as a support for my strength & conditioning routines. I've been loosely following the guidelines for the past 2 weeks. I do see an improvement in my sleep quality and in the past week have noticed a spike in my swimming endurance. This article highlights one aspect of the scientific community that I abhor, the petty disput…

As far as I know, almost any diet that's not obviously insane or unhealthy gives satisfactory results if followed diligently.

It's not about the specific content, it's not about any pseudo-scientific justifications for the content, it's simply about how easy it is to stay on the diet without lapsing or indulging in any extraneous treats.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#108
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> High Fructose Corn Syrup [1] didn't become a staple of the human die until AFAICT HFCS didn't become a staple of human diet, it just became important in the US, the rest of the world still uses _way_ more sugar than HFCS (e.g. a 60:1 rate of production in the EU).

Well. I am an American and we are the world, right....? // I jest. But if your colas are still made from sugar you are having the last laugh.

Are colas supposed to be a staple of the human diet ? :)

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#109
post #94
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pseudo science, there are droves of scientific literature that shows that meal timing is irrelevant and that as long as macronutrient content is similar, a calorie is a calorie.

And there are droves of scientific literature that show that meal timing is important and even if macronutrient content is similar, a calorie is not a calorie. The simple fact is: No one was able to prove anything beyond shallow platitudes ("If you eat three tons of flesh each day you will get fat too!" "If you eat nothing for month you will get lean!").

A quick search of PubMed finds some recent (within the last year) papers like:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23357955 - "Timing of food intake predicts weight loss effectiveness" It starts "Background: There is emerging literature demonstrating a relationship between the timing of feeding and weight regulation in animals. However, whether the timing of food intake influences the success of a weight-loss diet in humans is unknown."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23167985 - "Effects of exercise before or after meal ingestion on fat balance and postprandial metabolism in overweight men."; "It is unclear how timing of exercise relative to meal ingestion influences substrate balance and metabolic responses."

These make me think that there isn't "droves of scientific literature" which show the importance of meal timing in humans, much less characterize the magnitude of the importance. (Eg, if there's a measurable 1% difference in overall effect on weight then it's statistically significant finding, but almost certainly not enough for most people to care about.)

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#110
I've recently came to the conclusion that the Paleo diet is beneficial for me not because it tells me what to eat. No, it's because it tells me exactly what not to eat.

With respect to what people ate (especially how much meat), the only safe assumption was “whatever they could get,” something that to this day varies greatly depending on where they live.

Precisely. I can not tell exactly what and how much they could get, but I can know for sure what they could not get, regardless of where they lived, under any conditions:

- Sugar

- White bread

- Vegetable oils

- Soft drinks

- Any kind of packaged food

- Any kind of industrially processed food

etc.

For the rest - yes, one should be free to eat as much as they want vegetables, fruit, meat, fish, fresh nuts, berries etc ...

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