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“Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

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Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#41

Post by awolf »

jacalata wrote: post #25
brd wrote: post #9

The biggest problem I have with Zuk is that the entire premise of this book is based on a straw man argument. The "Paleo" in paleo diet comes from the fact that there was a clear dip in human health once we entered the neolithic era (i.e. started farming). We are not emulating a caveman's diet per se, we are simply trying to find and remove what caused that original dip in health. To anyone uninformed about the paleo…

google "The Paleo Diet", first result http://thepaleodiet.com/ : The Paleo Diet is based upon eating wholesome, contemporary foods from the food groups our hunter-gatherer ancestors would have thrived on during the Paleolithic era, the time period from about 2.6 million years ago to the beginning of the agricultural revolution, about 10,000 years ago. These foods include fresh meats (preferably grass-produced or free…

You grabbed a bunch of SEO-juiced search results to represent the entirety of the Paleo movement's stance?

google: "straw man fallacy", first result http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man:

>A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#42

Post by tomrod »

graeme wrote: post #16
a_bonobo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds interesting! Do you have any proof for this statement: >there was a clear dip in human health once we entered the neolithic era This statement seems hard to prove seeing as we didn't keep any health-records between 10,000 BC and 2,000 BC (I can see, however, that we currently live quite unhealthy).

I do not know the literature well enough to cite anthropological studies. But as far as I understand it, this is a relatively uncontroversial claim within the field. Jared Diamond's article is a good introduction: http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html Edit: As others have mentioned below, the main evidence is a decline in the height, bone density and tooth health of skeletons of pre and post neolitic humans. Ave…

How are confounding factors such as more children + crowd diseases accounted or?

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#43

Post by jamesaguilar »

awolf wrote: post #41
jacalata wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

google "The Paleo Diet", first result http://thepaleodiet.com/ : The Paleo Diet is based upon eating wholesome, contemporary foods from the food groups our hunter-gatherer ancestors would have thrived on during the Paleolithic era, the time period from about 2.6 million years ago to the beginning of the agricultural revolution, about 10,000 years ago. These foods include fresh meats (preferably grass-produced or free…

You grabbed a bunch of SEO-juiced search results to represent the entirety of the Paleo movement's stance? google: "straw man fallacy", first result http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man : > A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

I can't speak for everyone, but the citations your parent post provided are certainly characteristic of the typical claim I've heard paleo proponents make. There may be a difference between what the average user of the diet believes compared to those who spawned it though.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#44

Post by jacalata »

awolf wrote: post #41
jacalata wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

google "The Paleo Diet", first result http://thepaleodiet.com/ : The Paleo Diet is based upon eating wholesome, contemporary foods from the food groups our hunter-gatherer ancestors would have thrived on during the Paleolithic era, the time period from about 2.6 million years ago to the beginning of the agricultural revolution, about 10,000 years ago. These foods include fresh meats (preferably grass-produced or free…

You grabbed a bunch of SEO-juiced search results to represent the entirety of the Paleo movement's stance? google: "straw man fallacy", first result http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man : > A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

I have certainly been under the impression that Dr Loren Cordain was one of the biggest scientific names in Paleo, and I believe his books are some of the most popular ones on Paleo, which means that they are the entry to Paleo for many people. If you believe his thoughts are not representative of Paleo, you may want to go find a new name for your diet (and do be careful not to quote his research when explaining it).

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#45

Post by graeme »

com2kid wrote: post #32
kleinsch wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants." is a Michael Pollan quote. Definitely recommend his books if you're interested in nutrition.

The funny part here being that with Paleo, this becomes "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly meat."

Depends on what you mean by mostly. If the quotes are meant calorie wise, then there is disagreement.

If the quotes refer to volume, then they agree. Most paleo authorities say that plants should fill most of the plate.

Anyone know what Pollan meant?

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#46

Post by tjogin »

ellyagg wrote: post #23
brd wrote: post #9

The biggest problem I have with Zuk is that the entire premise of this book is based on a straw man argument. The "Paleo" in paleo diet comes from the fact that there was a clear dip in human health once we entered the neolithic era (i.e. started farming). We are not emulating a caveman's diet per se, we are simply trying to find and remove what caused that original dip in health. To anyone uninformed about the paleo…

Indeed, it's a review by someone with an axe to grind about a book by someone with an axe to grind. I'm not a "Paleo" person, but the hinting in this article that folks trying to infer better living patterns from the past are loons is faintly preposterous. We have just mounds of evidence (which doubters are free to research themselves) that many pre-Agricultural societies had (and have, actually) far lower rates of t…

Diseases of civilization are a function of congregation, not eating grains.

Obesity is the result of a caloric surplus. Cavemen didn't have that luxury.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#47

Post by dualogy »

ellyagg wrote: post #23
brd wrote: post #9

The biggest problem I have with Zuk is that the entire premise of this book is based on a straw man argument. The "Paleo" in paleo diet comes from the fact that there was a clear dip in human health once we entered the neolithic era (i.e. started farming). We are not emulating a caveman's diet per se, we are simply trying to find and remove what caused that original dip in health. To anyone uninformed about the paleo…

Indeed, it's a review by someone with an axe to grind about a book by someone with an axe to grind. I'm not a "Paleo" person, but the hinting in this article that folks trying to infer better living patterns from the past are loons is faintly preposterous. We have just mounds of evidence (which doubters are free to research themselves) that many pre-Agricultural societies had (and have, actually) far lower rates of t…

> Hunters and gatherers weren't obese. We are. By irrefutable inference, some lifestyle difference explains this

Yeah and that difference is the sheer abundance of cheap calories. People can and did get fat when eating too many calories of Paleo (easily possible if you overemphasize the fatty meats and sweeter fruits), people can and did lean out on breads and junk-food by simply consuming fewer calories than they expended over a prolonged period.

I have no axe to grind here, I'd say I myself eat 99% Paleo 99% of the time, save for the occasional brownie. Otherwise it's meats, vegs, fruits for me. But that's just my personal taste, and for body-fat storage or lack of it, consuming in excess of your energy expenditure surely must account for most of the most of it.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#48

Post by nbouscal »

awolf wrote: post #34
jacalata wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To repeat myself from earlier: If you object to people rebutting this 'straw man', then perhaps you should try and stop people from proposing it. You can't call something a straw man simply because it's not what you personally mean by the word.

Right, let me go do that. While I'm at it I'll make sure everyone who Googles "healthy diet" or for that matter "republican", all come away learning exactly the same meanings for those terms. My point in the above post was: Zuk is positioning herself as if she were attacking Paleo as a concept, but all she's really attacking is the mis-application of information by some members in a larger group. I call that a straw…

It's not a straw man if the views being ascribed to the movement at large are the views being conveyed by the movement at large. If you were to try to learn about the paleo diet from the perspective of someone who had never heard of it, you would find views that align quite closely with the views that Zuk is critiquing. Look at the Google results. The fact that your interpretation of the paleo "concept" does not square with those views does not make her critique a straw man.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#49

Post by akiselev »

ellyagg wrote: post #23
brd wrote: post #9

The biggest problem I have with Zuk is that the entire premise of this book is based on a straw man argument. The "Paleo" in paleo diet comes from the fact that there was a clear dip in human health once we entered the neolithic era (i.e. started farming). We are not emulating a caveman's diet per se, we are simply trying to find and remove what caused that original dip in health. To anyone uninformed about the paleo…

Indeed, it's a review by someone with an axe to grind about a book by someone with an axe to grind. I'm not a "Paleo" person, but the hinting in this article that folks trying to infer better living patterns from the past are loons is faintly preposterous. We have just mounds of evidence (which doubters are free to research themselves) that many pre-Agricultural societies had (and have, actually) far lower rates of t…

Can't say something like "(which doubters are free to research themselves)" and follow it up with a claim like "many pre-Agricultural societies had (and have, actually) far lower rates of the so-called "diseases of civilizations."

Actually you shouldn't even want to as there's a certain problem with gathering data on populations that lived 10,000 years ago with a geographically dispersed sample size of ... oh, I don't know, single digits?

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#50

Post by simonster »

awolf wrote: post #34
jacalata wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To repeat myself from earlier: If you object to people rebutting this 'straw man', then perhaps you should try and stop people from proposing it. You can't call something a straw man simply because it's not what you personally mean by the word.

Right, let me go do that. While I'm at it I'll make sure everyone who Googles "healthy diet" or for that matter "republican", all come away learning exactly the same meanings for those terms. My point in the above post was: Zuk is positioning herself as if she were attacking Paleo as a concept, but all she's really attacking is the mis-application of information by some members in a larger group. I call that a straw…

I haven't read the book, but the review made it sound like Zuk was both attacking Paleo as a concept by pointing out that evolution can actually happen on pretty short timescales and so the idea that we need to eat what paleolithic people ate is logically flawed, and also attacking Paleo as practiced by pointing out its practitioners' misconceptions regarding the diet of paleolithic humans.
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