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Dad hacks Donkey Kong for his daughter; Pauline now saves Mario

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Re: Dad hacks Donkey Kong for his daughter; Pauline now saves Mario

#81
post #10
post #4

Donkey Kong was highlighted as one of the first examples of Nintendo's overuse* of the "Damsel in Distress" trope in the first episode of Anita Sarkeesian's series on the portrayal of women in video games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q Very cool to see a parent help try to correct that for their kid as they introduce them to video games. *changed wording for clarity

It's a very abstract game that simply takes imagery from the classic King Kong movie. At this point trying to read more into it is a tad paranoid IMO.

This has nothing to do with paranoia. Because it's not about what Nintendo meant to say, it's about what effect it actually has.

Actions (and speech is a type of action) do not exist in some magic circle where a good intention protects them from doing harm.

Re: Dad hacks Donkey Kong for his daughter; Pauline now saves Mario

#82
post #75
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s pretty normal if you are tired of the constant portrayal of women as weak, helpless and passive in certain media. What’s so wrong with calling out lazy storytelling based on dumb stereotypes? How can you even have a problem with that? I also like how you just declare something harmless. Why, exactly? It’s a part of video game history that lives on and is anything but harmless. Calling out crap is wrong –…

First, women are smaller and weaker than men, on average, and there's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes reality has a conservative bias, you know? (But it would be more accurate to say that traditional ideas often have some basis in reality.) Second, I don't see why you have to demean all the men and women who are weak and passive. Their lives are perfectly worthwhile too, and they have something to contribute other…

I think it was pretty clear that I was not talking about muscle strength, you know. (And if you want to get down that route, I’m willing to bet that in general, overweight plumbers have less jumping ability than fit women.)

Also, I’m a shy introvert and I certainly do not want to demean anyone who is also that – I don’t think I did, actually. There is nothing wrong with shy and introverted characters, even weak characters or passive ones. That is not the problem. Those characters can all happily exist. The problem is that those characters tend to overwhelmingly be women.

In that light, I believe you misinterpreted me completely. I want better storytelling and more complex characters. I have really no problem with that. I do not want video games to again and again and again pick up on the same old lazy stereotype of women as being passive and weak. That’s it.

Re: Dad hacks Donkey Kong for his daughter; Pauline now saves Mario

#83
post #75
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s pretty normal if you are tired of the constant portrayal of women as weak, helpless and passive in certain media. What’s so wrong with calling out lazy storytelling based on dumb stereotypes? How can you even have a problem with that? I also like how you just declare something harmless. Why, exactly? It’s a part of video game history that lives on and is anything but harmless. Calling out crap is wrong –…

First, women are smaller and weaker than men, on average, and there's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes reality has a conservative bias, you know? (But it would be more accurate to say that traditional ideas often have some basis in reality.) Second, I don't see why you have to demean all the men and women who are weak and passive. Their lives are perfectly worthwhile too, and they have something to contribute other…

1) Its not the physically smaller or weaker part that is the problem - how often really do women need men to come rescue them? Is it any more than men needing women to rescue them? Why then are most of the video games, even the puzzle based ones where brains not brawn are the deciding factor, all about saving the women? It seems to me that there is certainly a curious imbalance there.

2) Strawman - parent is not demeaning the "weak and passive" so much as pointing out that a lot of video games present a wide variety of male types, but only the weak and passive female type. This is strange. The women I know seem to fall on a scale ranging from weak and passive to "alpha as fuck", just like the men.

3) Goalpost moving, true scotsman, and strawman rolled up into one: There is no argument here about orienting the games toward a gender, only the portrayal of genders within the games. If you think they are the same, then there is perhaps something else going on as well... basically there is some sort of assumption that games oriented towards boys should only portray men strongly. Which is weird, because how the hell would it appeal less to boys if some of the characters were strong women?

4) Actually a good point. Unfortunately mixed up in some sort of strawman - you are angry that people would like to see strong female characters in action games, so you are accusing the parent of only wanting action gams for kids - which is not evident in that post - and therefore hurting the chance for girls (who apparently can't like action games) to get good games for them. (I'm guessing that your conservative basis in reality suggests that means they need games about vacuuming, cooking and ponies).

Re: Dad hacks Donkey Kong for his daughter; Pauline now saves Mario

#85
post #4

Donkey Kong was highlighted as one of the first examples of Nintendo's overuse* of the "Damsel in Distress" trope in the first episode of Anita Sarkeesian's series on the portrayal of women in video games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q Very cool to see a parent help try to correct that for their kid as they introduce them to video games. *changed wording for clarity

Overused? This is the first Nintendo game that ever used that trope. Mario wasn't even called Mario before this point, and there was no princess. It was just Jumpman (renamed to Mario starting with this very game, who got his name from one of Nintendo's landlords at the time), Pauline (who got her name from the wife of an employee, but just "Lady" in the J version), and Donkey Kong.

Yes. Overused. This is one example of dozens from the Mario franchise that use this trope. Further, Nintento has pushd mario harder than most other franchises.

I really don't understand how you take issue because this game was the first, it seems disingenuous. It's like me saying "this is the first example of a digital computer. Digital computers changed, even revolutionized the world", and you saying "that was the first computer, it added some stuff it didn't revoultionize anything". Pure, unadulterated, disingenuous crap.

Re: Dad hacks Donkey Kong for his daughter; Pauline now saves Mario

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The upvote question is easy to answer -- this is Hacker News . Of course we upvote programming. And I agree with the point about writing. And I think we shouldn't read "everyone needs programming literacy" from hacking a ROM any more than we should read "everyone needs to know woodworking" from "here's a cool piece of furniture I built for my daughter." But I will try to answer the question about foisting software li…

Personally I have no horse in the coding-skills race; I really enjoy problem solving and architecting systems more than writing the code itself. If there were lots of commodity coders, I could direct and manage them and enjoy myself plenty ;) From the 'software is eating the world' perspective, I see increased use of software, but not increased production in unconventional areas. If you look at the progression of hom…

Well here is someone "in the industry", who completely agrees with the need for coding literacy. I can program, but I'm not a "programmer" by any means, and it's clear to see in whatever client I work with (I'm a Big 4 Management Consultant, sorry), coding skills are becoming increasingly relevant. Macro skills are the tip of the iceberg, some industries such as investment banking and engineering practically require programming skills to find a job, as the previous poster stated. Sure they can write the requirements for an application, but mostly these are not applications, these are ad-hoc, on the fly, limited use models that need to be made and altered in time with market fluctuations or environmental conditions - far quicker than monolithic IT departments can respond (even with agile work teams).

I don't really care which way you phrase it, whether you see the programming as incidental or the job function as incidental is just a matter of perspective. The fact is, programming (or at least "soft" programming skills such as VB and SQL) are becoming increasingly essential for many of the top tier jobs in today's economy. Don't want to learn programming? No problem - I'll find a few million Indians who do.

Re: Dad hacks Donkey Kong for his daughter; Pauline now saves Mario

#88

I will harp on about the importance of code literacy and open source / free software till the cows come home but this is the best example I know: We would never vote up a article where "father writes bedtime story for daughter, Sleeping Prince rescued by Princess". Because it is commonplace because literacy is commonplace, as are pens and paper commonplace and as are the legal frameworks to be allowed to alter the pu…

> We would never vote up a article where "father writes bedtime story for daughter, Sleeping Prince rescued by Princess". Because it is commonplace because literacy is commonplace, as are pens and paper commonplace and as are the legal frameworks to be allowed to alter the published version. It's also _considerably_ easier.

It's only easier after twenty years training submersed in a super-literate society. The actual changes he made were minor, just in a format most of us are completely unfamiliar with. Had this been a JavaScript game I suspect it would have passed unremarked

(actually that's unfair - had it been a JavaScript game of the iconic status of donkey kong then it would still be here)

Re: Dad hacks Donkey Kong for his daughter; Pauline now saves Mario

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people insist on foisting "software literacy" on the general populace? In terms of skills, financial planning, cooking, interpersonal skills are all more essential than reading and writing code. The writing analogy is off anyways: not everyone can write very well. People would upvote -and buy- a children's story by, say, neil gaiman. This is not the equivalent of a throwaway story made up on the spot.

The upvote question is easy to answer -- this is Hacker News . Of course we upvote programming. And I agree with the point about writing. And I think we shouldn't read "everyone needs programming literacy" from hacking a ROM any more than we should read "everyone needs to know woodworking" from "here's a cool piece of furniture I built for my daughter." But I will try to answer the question about foisting software li…

Very well put - and the cooking analogy has resonance

Re: Dad hacks Donkey Kong for his daughter; Pauline now saves Mario

#90

I will harp on about the importance of code literacy and open source / free software till the cows come home but this is the best example I know: We would never vote up a article where "father writes bedtime story for daughter, Sleeping Prince rescued by Princess". Because it is commonplace because literacy is commonplace, as are pens and paper commonplace and as are the legal frameworks to be allowed to alter the pu…

We would never vote up a article where "father writes bedtime story for daughter Yep. Because any idiot can do that. Your point?

Huh?

The point was that because literacy is commonplace, then annindividual altering a published piece of writing for personal preferences (making it more suitable for a daughter) is also commonplace.

My contention is that code literacy should / will be at the point where a "trivial" change to existing published code will not get on the front page of HN because it is as commonplace as it's "English writing" equivalent

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