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“Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

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Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#11
post #9

The biggest problem I have with Zuk is that the entire premise of this book is based on a straw man argument. The "Paleo" in paleo diet comes from the fact that there was a clear dip in human health once we entered the neolithic era (i.e. started farming). We are not emulating a caveman's diet per se, we are simply trying to find and remove what caused that original dip in health. To anyone uninformed about the paleo…

That sounds interesting! Do you have any proof for this statement: >there was a clear dip in human health once we entered the neolithic era This statement seems hard to prove seeing as we didn't keep any health-records between 10,000 BC and 2,000 BC (I can see, however, that we currently live quite unhealthy).

Usually, they used the height of specimen. Heights are good proxy for health.

I am not an anthropologist.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#12
post #7

Yep eating natural food is all bs. Please go back to your regular diet of ice-cream and cheetos.

There's a wide gap between a "paleo diet" and modern junk food.

One of my local science broadcasters[1] often uses the phrase "don't eat too much of anything your grandmother wouldn't recognise as food" - and I suspect that's pretty much the same good advice as the paleo movement's, the marginal difference health-wise between eating common 1950/1960s food attempting to re-create some idea of paleo diet is almost certainly tiny.

High fat/sugar/salt junk food, high fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated vegetable oil - there's no doubt that they shouldn't form the basis of your diet. But the paleo movements arguments against agricultural societies grain-heavy diet, with it's several thousand year ongoing trial, doesn't seem to be quite so real.

[1] Karl Kruszelnicki - http://www.drkarl.com/home/ Another one of his food/diet related phrases is "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants."

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#14
> Cordain, who has a Ph.D in exercise physiology, assured Zuk that human beings had not had time to adapt to foods that only became staples with the advent of agriculture. “It’s only been ten thousand years,” he explained. Zuk’s response: “Plenty of time.”

We have documented measurable evolution in large mammals in timespans of only several hundred years.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#15
post #9

The biggest problem I have with Zuk is that the entire premise of this book is based on a straw man argument. The "Paleo" in paleo diet comes from the fact that there was a clear dip in human health once we entered the neolithic era (i.e. started farming). We are not emulating a caveman's diet per se, we are simply trying to find and remove what caused that original dip in health. To anyone uninformed about the paleo…

That sounds interesting! Do you have any proof for this statement: >there was a clear dip in human health once we entered the neolithic era This statement seems hard to prove seeing as we didn't keep any health-records between 10,000 BC and 2,000 BC (I can see, however, that we currently live quite unhealthy).

[deleted]

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#16
post #9

The biggest problem I have with Zuk is that the entire premise of this book is based on a straw man argument. The "Paleo" in paleo diet comes from the fact that there was a clear dip in human health once we entered the neolithic era (i.e. started farming). We are not emulating a caveman's diet per se, we are simply trying to find and remove what caused that original dip in health. To anyone uninformed about the paleo…

That sounds interesting! Do you have any proof for this statement: >there was a clear dip in human health once we entered the neolithic era This statement seems hard to prove seeing as we didn't keep any health-records between 10,000 BC and 2,000 BC (I can see, however, that we currently live quite unhealthy).

I do not know the literature well enough to cite anthropological studies. But as far as I understand it, this is a relatively uncontroversial claim within the field. Jared Diamond's article is a good introduction:

http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html

Edit: As others have mentioned below, the main evidence is a decline in the height, bone density and tooth health of skeletons of pre and post neolitic humans.

Average lifespan also declined, from 33 --> 20 according to Wikipedia. (I don't know if the studies cited are good sources)

Keep in mind that these lifespan figures include infant mortality. This explains why they remain so low up until very modern times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#Life_expectancy...

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#17
post #9

The biggest problem I have with Zuk is that the entire premise of this book is based on a straw man argument. The "Paleo" in paleo diet comes from the fact that there was a clear dip in human health once we entered the neolithic era (i.e. started farming). We are not emulating a caveman's diet per se, we are simply trying to find and remove what caused that original dip in health. To anyone uninformed about the paleo…

That sounds interesting! Do you have any proof for this statement: >there was a clear dip in human health once we entered the neolithic era This statement seems hard to prove seeing as we didn't keep any health-records between 10,000 BC and 2,000 BC (I can see, however, that we currently live quite unhealthy).

> This statement seems hard to prove seeing as we didn't keep any health-records between 10,000 BC and 2,000 BC (I can see, however, that we currently live quite unhealthy).

Much can be done with forensic anthropology. There is one North American area in present day Mississippi that was inhabited across the adoption of agriculture, and the decline in health is documented in the teeth and bones.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#18
I don't live a paleo diet[1], but I think the focus on fresh foods is good. Just like anything, there may be a kernel of extremely important wisdom that gets surrounded by a huge amount of marketing to make money off of it (think agile programming as another example).

I also have yet to meet[2] a scientist whose word I would trust as the last word on the way I should eat. On the other hand, I've met a lot whose words have influenced how I eat. And based on the reading I've done, we are still so far from really understanding how the body processes food that the only sane approach is to read a lot, experiment on yourself, and monitor the results[3]. Unfortunately, there are just far too many people trying to sell something[4] when it comes to food.

1. I've settled pretty close to Atkins. In fact, one of the things I really like about Atkins is the "on-going weight loss" phase where you literally experiment, journal and measure to find out what is working for you.

2. "Meet" in the "I've read" sense. I'm always looking for more to read on this topic. Due to lack to good information being available, I passed 350 pounds. It took surgery to have a chance to start again; then a lot of studying to take advantage of that start.

3. The scale may be the worst way you can measure your progress. Blood tests are good. A journal of the way you feel is also good.

4. It is sad that, even the best intentioned scientists, still need to "sell" their work to their funding agencies. I don't have a concern than anybody is outright faking things; the concern I have is that anything that doesn't match the current dogma as decided by the FDA, USDA, etc, is getting silently thrown away. Not just "not published", but not even submitted for fear of what a result that challenges the orthodoxy can do to one's career.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#19
post #12
post #7

Yep eating natural food is all bs. Please go back to your regular diet of ice-cream and cheetos.

There's a wide gap between a "paleo diet" and modern junk food. One of my local science broadcasters[1] often uses the phrase "don't eat too much of anything your grandmother wouldn't recognise as food" - and I suspect that's pretty much the same good advice as the paleo movement's, the marginal difference health-wise between eating common 1950/1960s food attempting to re-create some idea of paleo diet is almost cert…

"Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants." is a Michael Pollan quote. Definitely recommend his books if you're interested in nutrition.
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