Apply to seventh batch of Hacker School • Hacker News Board

Re: Apply to seventh batch of Hacker School

#21

Post by nosefrog » Sun, Mar 10, 2013, 9:15 PM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #18

nosefrog wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any attempt to alleviate the gender inequality within the industry should be applauded, not derided. The current deficit of women programmers is because of our culture's discrimination against women who program. People in software development encouraging women to participate are simply fighting against this cultural discrimination. If you really flagged this post because you think the grant is unfair, I would advise…

We can agree that it would be good to increase gender diversity in the industry. But you are making a leap without enough evidence to say that the reason it exists is because of "our culture's discrimination against women who program."

It is an assumption I've made because of a personal belief and a fact: I believe that women are just as qualified as men in the field of software engineering, and women are outnumbered by men 5:1 in that field [0]. There are many reasons why this might be true, but I think the one that makes the most sense to me is that our culture discriminates against women who program (and women in science and tech in general).

[0] http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/programming-and-development...

Re: Apply to seventh batch of Hacker School

#22

Post by dschobel » Sun, Mar 10, 2013, 9:36 PM UTC

jerrya wrote: post #3

I am flagging this. I am flagging this precisely because I believe the Hacker School experience is valuable and yet you offer a sexist and discriminatory grant to women. Hacker School is valuable due to the experiences, the education, and the networking opportunities. Do you offer scholarships for living expenses? We offer a limited number of $5,000 need-based grants for women to do Hacker School. You can apply for a…

Why do you see a positive incentive to female applicants as an implicit disincentive to male applicants?

Re: Apply to seventh batch of Hacker School

#23

Post by jrajav » Sun, Mar 10, 2013, 10:04 PM UTC

lfranchi wrote: post #16

jrajav wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the anecdote! I may actually consider it.

Awesome! I'm happy to go on at (much) further length about why it's so awesome and why you and any hacker absolutely should consider it. Feel free to shoot me an email @gmail.com if you have any questions!

Sent it off! Hopefully I guessed right.

Re: Apply to seventh batch of Hacker School

#24

Post by gfodor » Sun, Mar 10, 2013, 10:14 PM UTC

nosefrog wrote: post #21

gfodor wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can agree that it would be good to increase gender diversity in the industry. But you are making a leap without enough evidence to say that the reason it exists is because of "our culture's discrimination against women who program."

It is an assumption I've made because of a personal belief and a fact: I believe that women are just as qualified as men in the field of software engineering, and women are outnumbered by men 5:1 in that field [0]. There are many reasons why this might be true, but I think the one that makes the most sense to me is that our culture discriminates against women who program (and women in science and tech in general). [0…

I think its funny I'm getting downvoted because people are projecting onto what I said. Hint: there are more possible answers to the question "Why aren't there more women programmers?" other than "the industry discriminates against them" and "they are not qualified."

Re: Apply to seventh batch of Hacker School

#25

Post by achompas » Sun, Mar 10, 2013, 10:31 PM UTC

jerrya wrote: post #3

I am flagging this. I am flagging this precisely because I believe the Hacker School experience is valuable and yet you offer a sexist and discriminatory grant to women. Hacker School is valuable due to the experiences, the education, and the networking opportunities. Do you offer scholarships for living expenses? We offer a limited number of $5,000 need-based grants for women to do Hacker School. You can apply for a…

I am flagging this precisely because I believe the Hacker School experience is valuable and yet you offer a sexist and discriminatory grant to women.

I'll outline this for you as clearly as possible.

Fact: a small, but significant, group of engineers in our field are sexist. They post GIFs that make women uncomfortable, call women "conference hos," and do otherwise lewd or inappropriate things.

Fact: as a result, women are uncomfortable working as software engineers. We know this because many blog posts state this discomfort explicitly. Your niece, unfortunately, may experience this if she decides to work as a software engineer.

Fact: we see similar grants for college attendance; these grants attempt to fight various socioeconomic factors ("old boys networks," among other things) that may prevent underrepresented groups from attending prestigious colleges.

Would you feel comfortable offering such a sexist grant to men only?

Obviously not. Why? Because, as the above facts illustrate, this grant attempts to address the sexism women face in our industry.

The Hacker School team can't drive around and hit every sexist idiot with a bit of reality, but they can try to provide an antidote to this sexism by (a) alleviating financial concerns for aspiring women engineers, and (b) providing a guaranteed non-sexist zone for them to practice their craft.

I can see how one might argue that this grant selects on behalf of gender, thus giving it an "affirmative action" flavor. That person, however, might want to present an argument slightly more nuanced than "THIS GRANT IS SEXIST ZOMGGGGGG," like you've done. You may want to try again.

(Also, a fact for those finding this via Twitter: Jerry does not represent the entirety of HN. (I'm waiting for Danilo Campos to join in, he usually whacks people with a sanity stick when it comes to misogyny in tech.))

(Also also, while I believe with all of my being that you're wrong about this, I didn't downvote you, because your comment fosters some good discussion (in a roundabout, totally unintentional way).)

Re: Apply to seventh batch of Hacker School

#26

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 11, 2013, 12:09 AM UTC

jerrya wrote: post #3

I am flagging this. I am flagging this precisely because I believe the Hacker School experience is valuable and yet you offer a sexist and discriminatory grant to women. Hacker School is valuable due to the experiences, the education, and the networking opportunities. Do you offer scholarships for living expenses? We offer a limited number of $5,000 need-based grants for women to do Hacker School. You can apply for a…

[deleted]

Re: Apply to seventh batch of Hacker School

#27

Post by holdenweb » Mon, Mar 11, 2013, 12:13 AM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #26

jerrya wrote: post #3

I am flagging this. I am flagging this precisely because I believe the Hacker School experience is valuable and yet you offer a sexist and discriminatory grant to women. Hacker School is valuable due to the experiences, the education, and the networking opportunities. Do you offer scholarships for living expenses? We offer a limited number of $5,000 need-based grants for women to do Hacker School. You can apply for a…

[deleted]

I should apologize for the ad hominem use of "like you" and "idiot" in the original of the above description. I have apparently successfully edited the post, but intend to leave this apology here in case the original may be archived somewhere.

The truth is I don't know you, and I don't know anything about you, so it was unfair and unnecessary of me to characterize you in that way with a knee-jerk reaction. Sorry. You have stimulated a debate, and I do not wish to belittle your point of view, mistaken though I believe it to be.

Re: Apply to seventh batch of Hacker School

#28

Post by holdenweb » Mon, Mar 11, 2013, 12:15 AM UTC

jerrya wrote: post #3

I am flagging this. I am flagging this precisely because I believe the Hacker School experience is valuable and yet you offer a sexist and discriminatory grant to women. Hacker School is valuable due to the experiences, the education, and the networking opportunities. Do you offer scholarships for living expenses? We offer a limited number of $5,000 need-based grants for women to do Hacker School. You can apply for a…

Well, whoop-de-fucking doo. Do you feel better now?

That's not sexism, it's GENDER DISCRIMINATION. And it's intended to counterbalance the years of bullshit that women have gone through because of the knuckle-draggers and others who aren't really concerned about such issues in charge. People who get a limited grasp on an idea and then try to twist the evidence to incorporate their world view, rather than doing joined-up thinking based on, you know, actual evidence.

I have spent years addressing the lack of all types of diversity in the open source world generally (and the Python community specifically) and I applaud efforts to increase female participation in information technology and open source. It is unconscionable that the gender balance in the open source software world is EVEN WORSE than in IT and the hi-tech world generally. But all you can do is bleat on about your nephew being discriminated against. Can't you see the larger good that this discrimination offers?

Did you also think the reverse discrimination applied to allow more black people to partake of opportunities which they had formerly been unconstitutionally denied was racist? I am aware there are some people who do, and they are peddling exactly the same type of bullshit as this.

Re: Apply to seventh batch of Hacker School

#29

Post by mel9 » Mon, Mar 11, 2013, 12:36 AM UTC

hey this hackerschool looks pretty cool. I see that their is a checkbox for "I am a woman" though. I am a high school-er that goes to vocational school for software engineering. I also happen to be a girl. I'm not so sure about putting a checkbox of "I'm a woman". It might turn that group away and I don't even like the idea of it too much. I'd rather have people see me more than just a gender.

Re: Apply to seventh batch of Hacker School

#30

Post by achompas » Mon, Mar 11, 2013, 12:45 AM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #18

nosefrog wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any attempt to alleviate the gender inequality within the industry should be applauded, not derided. The current deficit of women programmers is because of our culture's discrimination against women who program. People in software development encouraging women to participate are simply fighting against this cultural discrimination. If you really flagged this post because you think the grant is unfair, I would advise…

We can agree that it would be good to increase gender diversity in the industry. But you are making a leap without enough evidence to say that the reason it exists is because of "our culture's discrimination against women who program."

There's an embarrassing amount of circumstantial evidence.