Live data from Hacker News

Why I created Comic Sans

connare.com

81–90 of 137 posts

Re: Why I created Comic Sans

#81
post #75
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I disagree, it's just not a good font. It has zero contrast (not suitable for display text and print), no harmony (not suitable for body text), and it's poorly hinted (not suitable for screen text). Which is beside the point. It wasn't supposed to be used for body text or print in small sizes. And it doesn't have to be hinted because it's not meant to be used for long form screen text. Would you call a title font "…

I found the last example pretty convincing: I did not recognise Chalkboard, and the first part seemed readable to me to the point I said myself "Well, Comic Sans is not so bad finally" ... and then the last line instantly jumped at me due to kerning and baseline. Comic Sans glyphs seem to each stand on their own, unable to keep themselves together to form a word. Chalkboard is far from perfect (see k-e kern) but it i…

>Comic Sans glyphs seem to each stand on their own, unable to keep themselves together to form a word. The case against Comic Sans in undue context is due to the funny glyphs, while the case against Comic Sans vs other comic fonts is due not to the glyphs but to the whitespace around them.

This whitespace and keming problems though might add to the naive appeal of the font. Like, for example, bad perspective and distorted proportions make a drawing more child-like.

Re: Why I created Comic Sans

#82
post #6

And here I thought it was just to piss off pretentious typography fascists and give self-righteous design snobs something to huff about. Really, I've always been a defender of comic sans as appropriate where the intent is to be casual or personal. One critical comment by a BBC article reader: "The main problem I have with Comic Sans is that it makes everything written in it look like a parish newsletter pinned to a n…

I don't think even the most pretentious of designers would ever scoff at the use of Comic Sans where it was appropriate and fitting, such as on the invitation to a 6 year old's birthday party. That's where is fits, it exudes 'fun'. Where 'pretentious' designers do begin to huff is when it is used in a clearly inappropriately context such as on police notices raising awareness of rape. The handwriting example isn't pa…

That site also list appropriate uses too. [1][2][3]

In these cases the intended audience is children, where Comic Sans is totally okay.

[1]: http://inappropriatecomicsans.tumblr.com/image/19581183110

[2]: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1m7zmD2ot1rs2h1co1_500.pn...

[3]: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m135odVzpV1rs2h1co1_500.pn...

Re: Why I created Comic Sans

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kurt Cobain sure did. By cross-dressing he made Nirvana have a lot less appeal for the heavy metal fans.

also the atrocious guitar playing and constant mumbling helped a lot in that department. but we digress. on the topic: i like comic sans. it looks friendly. there, i said it.

> also the atrocious guitar playing

You're joking right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoiUpe7N3D0

Re: Why I created Comic Sans

#84
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Serif title with Sans body-text for the web the inverse is true for print . i.e., Sans for header and Serif for body for print documents. Now, re-read this: Microsoft did partly address that by making Cambria and Calibri its default header and body fonts (for Word) Did they get it mixed up? I think so.

I would think that was a conscious choice. My impression is that people print much less today than ten years ago.

Oh dear, this is turning into one of those "You say Tomahto, I say tomato" kind of discussion.... even though I did not intend it to be.

Personally, I think there is no point splitting hairs over whether they goofed up or whether it was intended... MS-Word as a product is intended for the "write it, and then print it" market (whether the actual printing happens or not is another thing altogether), and for that demographic, the typographic convention is Serif for body text and Sans (not a necessary condition, though) for heading [0]. And from that point of view, the design choice is mixed up. Right or Wrong, that was the only point I was trying to make.

[0] Again, I am aware that "is serif readable?" is a different can-of-worms altogether.

Re: Why I created Comic Sans

#85
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kurt Cobain sure did. By cross-dressing he made Nirvana have a lot less appeal for the heavy metal fans.

Really? Heavy Metal fans were into cross dressing ever since the seventies. Including gay all-leather biker chic, long curly bubblegum hair and tights in the eighties...

Okay, I'm no expert on heave metal. Perhaps another kind of audience.

Re: Why I created Comic Sans

#86
I'm shocked and awed that this magnificent internet battle has been waged for years and I never noticed it.

Is it too late for me to have an opinion on whether or not I hate Comic Sans?

Re: Why I created Comic Sans

#87

Comic Sans as a font needs no defense. Just like a good band with bad fans, we don't balk at Comic Sans, we balk at the people who use comic sans for inappropriate things. (Or to use a more computery analogy, there's nothing wrong with capital letters or all-caps, but some users use them inappropriately). City memo minutes should not be distributed in Comic Sans. Wedding invitations should probably not be in Comic Sa…

"Comic Sans as a font needs no defense." I disagree, it's just not a good font. It has zero contrast (not suitable for display text and print), no harmony (not suitable for body text), and it's poorly hinted (not suitable for screen text). It looks more like finger painting than comic lettering [1]. It's not even a true sans serif; in the article, the author admits to cheating. There are way better fonts that Microso…

You can make a lot of arguments against Comic Sans but these are either not the right ones, or you're going to need to back them up with some explanations what you really mean (because merely stating typographic jargon doesn't make it factual).

So, I'm just going to call you out on a few things. I might not know all about typography, but I do know quite a bit. I would say more than the average person, so if I don't get what you mean really, it's probably a good idea to expand on it, if you stand behind those statements. And if I got the wrong ideas from your short critique, please do educate us, I'm always willing to learn.

Hinting. Can you give me an example of how it's poorly hinted? From what I've always seen, Comic Sans is actually hinted rather well, and in my opinion actually gets better at smaller point sizes (mainly because with less pixels the shapes and kerning become more regular).

Contrast. Now about the zero contrast, I suppose what you really meant is that the lines are all equal thickness, which is something different than "contrast" because you're going to have appearance of heavier weight at the connections of the lines, which is why Helvetica and Arial actually have varying stroke widths, to give the appearance of uniform weight. You can argue this gives Comic Sans bad or uneven contrast, and I'd be inclined to agree. But zero contrast doesn't make sense to me when referring to Comic Sans.

Additionally, how does this automatically disqualify a font from print or display? Especially really large display, I've seen it in large rainbow coloured logos at children's daycare centres, and it works just fine there.

Harmony. I did some Googling to make sure, but the only typographical meaning of the term "harmony" that I've been able to find is the one that I already knew, and it's not something you can attribute to a font. It's to do with the rhythm and contrasts of spacing and weights (and more) on a page or part of a page. You can say it's hard to make a harmonious design with Comic Sans, but you cannot say Comic Sans does not "have" harmony.

I do agree it's not particularly suitable for body text (unless you happen to have dyslexia, but there's prettier fonts that help there, unfortunately they're not free).

(Sans) serif. Not a true sans-serif, how is this bad? The author explains his choice and I think that particular choice was a great one. In today's digital world, differences between Il|1 can be crucial, and can't always be inferred from context, most typographical conventions followed out of a need for medium-specific legibility, and I'm afraid you're going to have to deal with the fact that mixing serif and sans-serif is now a valid design choice.

I still don't particularly like Comic Sans myself either, but for different reasons (that I explained elsewhere in this thread).

Re: Why I created Comic Sans

#88
post #16
post #8

One of the reasons people don't like Comic Sans is because it was overused, largely thanks to being included with a bunch of default Microsoft tools. It was also use in the wrong contexts. Amusingly, I think the same holds true of the typeface that sparked the whole thing: Time New Roman. Far too many people use it for far too much, sometimes in the wrong context. So maybe we should all use Times less too! (I tend to…

Microsoft did partly address that by making Cambria and Calibri its default header and body fonts. But really, basic knowledge about Typography would help a great deal in creating decent looking content. A Serif title with Sans body-text for the web makes content easier to read, and the inverse is true for print.

In Word 2013, Calibri Light is used for header instead of Cambria.

Re: Why I created Comic Sans

#89
post #34
post #8

One of the reasons people don't like Comic Sans is because it was overused, largely thanks to being included with a bunch of default Microsoft tools. It was also use in the wrong contexts. Amusingly, I think the same holds true of the typeface that sparked the whole thing: Time New Roman. Far too many people use it for far too much, sometimes in the wrong context. So maybe we should all use Times less too! (I tend to…

Thanks. This is what I wanted to say as well. I am heartily sick of Times/Arial/Comic as you rightly said. Hell, I even saw it on some road sign/car parking bays where some kind of large Sans (Highway Sans??) is legally obligatory! Now Times as replace the venerable Courier New in US govt. documents.... Oh the horror! For me it was anything but those. :-) +1 for Palatino/Garamond. I also read somewhere that Garamond…

> fontsquirrel, dafont, urbanfont

while these sites are fine if you're looking for a cool display font for a poster or something, it's quite hard to find fonts there suitable for heavy use because many of them are really (really) badly kerned and miss many glyphs you need in most texts.

there's probably a few to be found there (especially on FontSquirrel), but it's real hard to tell before downloading and trying them on a full paragraph, as the sites are very specifically designed to answer the question "does my short title / logo look good in this font?" instead of "is it a good font to use in Word?".

Re: Why I created Comic Sans

#90
post #86

I'm shocked and awed that this magnificent internet battle has been waged for years and I never noticed it. Is it too late for me to have an opinion on whether or not I hate Comic Sans?

It's never quite too late, but you might want to really rage about it, to make up for all the lost time.
Post reply on HN