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On being a girl in computer science - a confession

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Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#241

Post by TheZenPsycho »

Tichy wrote: post #237
TheZenPsycho wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nurses and nannies don't earn as much money as IT specialists, but women don't need so much money. They tend to be the supplemental earners in a family, not the main breadwinners. Simple as that. oof, really? That's what you think about women? wow. Reverse the gendered nouns about that. How would you feel, as a man, if someone said something like that about your entire gender ?

What did I say about women that you disagree with? If I said that men tend to be just the supplemental earners in a family it would be false. At least for the present time. I don't understand what you might find offensive about that - I didn't say that women are incapable of earning a lot of money, just that they often voluntarily choose to not do so. And I don't think it is going to change, because women get pregnan…

I am not offended. I am just surprised at the level of stupidity on display here. The same level of stupidity that exists for generalising /anything/ about 50% out of a collection of things.

Let's try it with men.

Men are tend towards being incapable of feeling emotions. Men are very violent, and drunk. Men are afraid of commitment. Men hate talking about things. Men are very impersonal toward children. Men enjoy sports. Men only care about money.

How useless are these sorts of statements? How does it help anyone to pigeonhole a class of people as having certain stereotypical attributes? It's not science, it's bigotry.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#242

Post by MrScruff »

EliRivers wrote: post #234
MrScruff wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Axiom 1 is very debatable. Other fields, for example veterinary science, have switched from male dominated to female dominated in a generation with no affirmative action involved. https://hardnewscafe.usu.edu/?p=6581

Whilst I'm no expert in the field, I think the culture of veterinary science is significantly different. So different that it's not a useful analogy. Here are my reasons: Vets need qualifications; there are very few vets who just kind of taught themselves by cutting up animals and experiementing with giving them different drugs. Whilst experience counts for a lot, I really don't see experienced vets looking at a new…

Vets need qualifications; there are very few vets who just kind of taught themselves by cutting up animals and experiementing with giving them different drugs. Whilst experience counts for a lot, I really don't see experienced vets looking at a new vets work and saying "Hur! Fuckin Noob!". Contrast this with the common perception amongst (some, by no means all) programmers that a degree really doesn't mean a lot when it comes to ability to actually solve problems, write good code, work well in a team etc etc.

The male/female divide in CS is often identified as occurring before college, so I'm not sure I'd accept this argument. For it to be true, it would mean that women are abandoning CS after college which I haven't seen any evidence for.

Vets (often) work in small groups. Small groups foster much less secure mob mentalities and all the other gang characteristics that we see in large groups. In some companies, a programmer pen can hold fifty or more programmers.

In some companies, yes. None of the ones I've worked for though. Also, again I don't see how this would deter women from studying CS at college.

(Many) vets work with people. They work ON animals, but the animal has an owner who is worried and needs to be dealt with as well. Vets have people skills and comport themselves as professionals. If my livelihood depended on the vet to properly examine my herd of cows, and the vet carried the attitude I see many programmers carry, I'd fire them on the spot and find someone else. Many programmers rarely have to actually work with customers, and that becomes more and more true the larger the programming team (which is exactly the kind of situation where unfortunate attitudes can take hold and/or immature behaviour run without being confronted).

I'm not really sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that a stereotypical software developer wouldn't make a good vet? If so, I wouldn't disagree though I don't see what that says about women not going into CS.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#243

Post by lhnz »

>> If we start young, really young, and simply presented all careers as gender/race/etc-neutral, and didn’t spend any energy defining special groups, what would happen?

What would happen is that even though you were no longer consciously creating the groups, they already exist in reality because of consciously or unconsciously sexist people. What would happen is that everything would remain the same, or get worse.

That said, I enjoyed the article. I think I would teach people to learn to stand to be different, and I would teach groups of people to be accepting of those that are different.

The problem isn't that groups are separated, it is that people don't feel safe being the only female individual in a male-dominated group, and that in many cases they are right to feel like this as they do not pass all of the in-group tests [0]. This is just human nature and it probably can't be changed - so just be what feels right for you, and try to respect other people's right to be what they want to be.

Reality is, this is probably the only possible solution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ingroup_identity

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group_favoritism

edit; I realise I've just synced with your view, but a little more depth here. Things won't just fix themselves because you choose to ignore them.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#244

Post by Tichy »

TheZenPsycho wrote: post #241
Tichy wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did I say about women that you disagree with? If I said that men tend to be just the supplemental earners in a family it would be false. At least for the present time. I don't understand what you might find offensive about that - I didn't say that women are incapable of earning a lot of money, just that they often voluntarily choose to not do so. And I don't think it is going to change, because women get pregnan…

I am not offended. I am just surprised at the level of stupidity on display here. The same level of stupidity that exists for generalising /anything/ about 50% out of a collection of things. Let's try it with men. Men are tend towards being incapable of feeling emotions. Men are very violent, and drunk. Men are afraid of commitment. Men hate talking about things. Men are very impersonal toward children. Men enjoy spo…

If you read carefully, I never made any claims like the ones you listed. I never said men and women have different mental capabilities or emotional preferences. To assume such things is unnecessary for understanding the difference.

I claim there is one relevant difference between men and women: women can get children, men can't. That is sufficient to explain everything because it gives women more options. Therefore they can be more laid back in life, because they can have children even if they are not economically successful (women just have to get pregnant, men have to convince women to carry their babies, usually by offering economic stability). (The "laid back" part is of course very simplified, of course women work and try hard, but with focus on other things than earning a lot of money).

If you bother to read that book I linked to, you may be shocked to find that unmarried women actually earn more than unmarried men. So of course women can choose whatever they want to, including to earn more than men. It's just that very often they chose not to.

Honestly, this conversation makes me a bit desperate, because it is always the same in politics: people only see what they want to see, jump to conclusions and never question anything, and arrive at completely detrimental policies. I bet you will not read that book, not even the short kindle sample, because your opinion is already fixed.

I was just thinking that the only hope might again be more education, education, education, teaching people to think critical in school (and especially maths, which is about finding truth and being a skeptic). But my hopes are not high.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#245

Post by ZoFreX »

cletus wrote: post #102

I think these sorts of articles are asking the wrong question when they ask "why aren't there more women in CS?" or "how can we get more women in CS?" Instead the question should be (IMHO) "are there any barriers to entry for women in CS?" I suspect the opinion people have on this issue largely mirrors their view on affirmative action. Some believe in a meritocracy that is blind to race, age and gender. They believe…

> I think these sorts of articles are asking the wrong question when they ask "why aren't there more women in CS?" or "how can we get more women in CS?"

Agreed. But I think the right question to ask is "how can we stop driving women out of CS?" Many of my friends left the field due to sexism, and I have personally witnessed a lot of sexism in the field. Add to that the scientific studies showing that everyone is subconsiously biased against hiring women and it's clear to me that we have a very real problem.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#246

Post by taeric »

lizzard wrote: post #21
taeric wrote: post #2

Similarly, I have to confess I am a little worried about this with my daughter. It is ridiculously clear that she does not do your stereotypical girl activities already at the age of 3. To the point that some of the boys in her "pre-k" class have actually thought that spiderman was a girl's thing. For the most part, my wife and I both think this is hilarious. And we are fine letting her do whatever she wants. However…

Sure it will bother her some at some point, but be supportive and give her good options, that's the best you can do! Cannot fix society all the way immediately... but you can give her confidence and courage.

:) Thanks! I just do not know how to specifically address that there is nothing wrong with her or the other girls. Basically, it is fairly natural (I think, am I wrong?) to not get along with everyone. It is not a fault on either side, necessarily.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#247

Post by taeric »

RougeFemme wrote: post #87
taeric wrote: post #2

Similarly, I have to confess I am a little worried about this with my daughter. It is ridiculously clear that she does not do your stereotypical girl activities already at the age of 3. To the point that some of the boys in her "pre-k" class have actually thought that spiderman was a girl's thing. For the most part, my wife and I both think this is hilarious. And we are fine letting her do whatever she wants. However…

I think the best thing you can do for your daughter is help her learn not to be bothered whenever she thinks and acts outside the norms. Teach her to be comfortable with who and what she is. Of course, mom and dad will have to feel that way, too. :-) It seems that you do feel that way, - you just need to pass that strength on to her.

This is pretty much exactly what is tough. I know you can not get someone to be ok with something by saying "be ok." At this age, not that big of a deal, as we just make sure she is comfortable in everything else. When she is older and wants to get along with more folks, how do we get her comfortable then? (That make sense?)

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#248

Post by TheZenPsycho »

Tichy wrote: post #244
TheZenPsycho wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not offended. I am just surprised at the level of stupidity on display here. The same level of stupidity that exists for generalising /anything/ about 50% out of a collection of things. Let's try it with men. Men are tend towards being incapable of feeling emotions. Men are very violent, and drunk. Men are afraid of commitment. Men hate talking about things. Men are very impersonal toward children. Men enjoy spo…

If you read carefully, I never made any claims like the ones you listed. I never said men and women have different mental capabilities or emotional preferences. To assume such things is unnecessary for understanding the difference. I claim there is one relevant difference between men and women: women can get children, men can't. That is sufficient to explain everything because it gives women more options. Therefore t…

>Nurses and nannies don't earn as much money as IT specialists, but women don't need so much money. They tend to be the supplemental earners in a family, not the main breadwinners. Simple as that.

Really, honestly. Think about what you are saying here.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#249

Post by Tichy »

TheZenPsycho wrote: post #248
Tichy wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read carefully, I never made any claims like the ones you listed. I never said men and women have different mental capabilities or emotional preferences. To assume such things is unnecessary for understanding the difference. I claim there is one relevant difference between men and women: women can get children, men can't. That is sufficient to explain everything because it gives women more options. Therefore t…

>Nurses and nannies don't earn as much money as IT specialists, but women don't need so much money. They tend to be the supplemental earners in a family, not the main breadwinners. Simple as that. Really, honestly. Think about what you are saying here.

Explain it? You take offense by the "don't need so much money" or the "supplemental earners" thing? The latter is presumably simply a current statistical fact? Don't need so much money - well I explained it. And as I said, any women who feels she needs more money is free to earn it, even today, and even in IT.

Earning more money usually comes at a price. I don't understand why you find it offensive to assume that some people have different priorities?

Women in IT: why do you think the recent "geekettes Hackathon" in Berlin felt it necessary to offer Yoga classes alongside the Hackathon? Is it a bad thing?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#250

Post by im3w1l »

klibertp wrote: post #231
LockeWatts wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Isn't that ok? No, why in the hell would that be okay? What makes one act of discrimination better than the other? >Every single time I think about this issue I feel guilty as hell just for being male. Every time I see a cultural norm that discriminates women I feel a bit responsible for it - and these bits accumulate quickly. I'm ready to be discriminated against to some extent if it's going to help; it's not becau…

> What makes one act of discrimination better than the other? Discrimination is bad for some and good for others, always. It's better if it's good for those oppressed and worse if it's making that oppression grow. It's still bad, though, and so it should be only temporary. > Congratulations, your internalization of guilt and willingness to be discriminated against does not extend to me, and you have no right to tell…

>Hey, relax!

You are trying to oppress me. I will not relax.

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