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On being a girl in computer science - a confession

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Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#171

Post by rayiner »

LockeWatts wrote: post #138
rayiner wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For me, I'm not sure how productive all this gender hand-wringing really is. It's potentially very productive. The culture of CS, "judgmental introversion" as you put it, is not anything intrinsic to CS. Indeed, software engineering is a profession that demands a high level of communication and cooperation. The "lone hacker" stereotype is in my opinion quite the opposite of the kind of people you want in software e…

>So your dichotomy about "meritocracy" is short-sighted. There is nothing "meritocratic" about indulging male culture to keep a field male-dominated. Indeed, that's anti-meritocratic I don't see how a blind meritocracy is indulging male culture. Isn't the whole point of a meritocracy the idea that the only thing it cares about is performance?

What you have in CS now isn't "blind meritocracy." If the male culture is turning away qualified women, you don't have a meritocracy.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#172

Post by LockeWatts »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #163
LockeWatts wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about we argue instead that discriminating is wrong, and we shouldn't actively promote it.

Racism, sexism, etc are necessarily wrong. However, discrimination is not necessarily wrong. Whether its wrong depends on the context and the motivations. I submit that this is a valid form of "discrimination".

First, nothing is necessarily wrong, as that would imply an absolute rather than relative morality. All morality is relativistic.

Secondly, I would argue that your list, from my point of view, denoted 'racism, sexism, etc' is more rigorously defined as 'discriminating based on anything other than merit'.

Given that assumption, discrimination by race or sex for any reason would be wrong.

With those premises, I stand by my original conclusion that discrimination on the whole is wrong.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#174

Post by edmccard »

gonehome wrote: post #105
edmccard wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think they will result in fewer women in CS? Or is it some other kind of harm?

I think it's a little more insidious than that. It refocuses the issue to gender and suggests you're special in tech not because of what you've done or want to do, but simply because of what you are. I think this devalues the accomplishments by focusing on an unimportant aspect. It subtly suggests (unintentionally) that girls can't make it on their own and require this extra help - which I think reinforces the sexist…

>It refocuses the issue to gender and suggests you're special in tech...

I think one of the purposes of these kinds of separate events is to make it so that women in tech are not "special".

>I think this devalues the accomplishments by focusing on an unimportant aspect.

Unimportant to you, maybe, but not to the people who face barriers because of their gender. To make an analogy, is the success of some African-Americans today "devalued" because they didn't have to work as hard for it as the "exceptional blacks" of previous generations?

>It subtly suggests (unintentionally) that girls can't make it on their own and require this extra help...

One of the benefits of living in society instead of striking out for the frontier is that, when the deck is stacked against you, you can band together to solve problems that might be too hard to face on your own. Yes, there are always "exceptional" people who can go it alone, but the fact that _somebody_ didn't need extra help doesn't mean that _nobody_ needs extra help.

>I don't think excluding people by sex is necessary.

Necessary for what? In an ideal world, you wouldn't have to take gender into account, but (imperfect as it may be), I think women-only events are a way to create environments where gender issues don't come into play.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#175

Post by LockeWatts »

d0mine wrote: post #165
LockeWatts wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So your dichotomy about "meritocracy" is short-sighted. There is nothing "meritocratic" about indulging male culture to keep a field male-dominated. Indeed, that's anti-meritocratic I don't see how a blind meritocracy is indulging male culture. Isn't the whole point of a meritocracy the idea that the only thing it cares about is performance?

You are ignoring initial conditions. I understand rayiner's comment as: 1. high male/female ratio + blind meritocracy => self-sustaining male culture 2. affirmative action as a temporary kludge to shift male/female ratio 3. lower male/female ratio + blind meritocracy => self-sustaining new equilibrium That is after affirmative action stops; it is not necessary that the system returns to old high male/female state.

> 1. high male/female ratio + blind meritocracy => self-sustaining male culture

Based on what, the assumption that women are self-selecting against wanting to be programmers due to it being a male dominated profession?

In that case, the action should be taken to promote CS education and inclusion at the preparatory level. Creating a bias away from the meritocracy at the hiring stage is still discriminatory and results in an overall lower skill level.

My personal problem with this is that you're looking at it on a generational scale.

You're basically telling multiple generations of men that it's okay for them to be discriminated against for their entire life due to something that their fathers or grandfathers did.

That's not 'equality' for them.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#176

Post by Evenjos »

noonespecial wrote: post #55

My daughter has told me a few times that she might like to program like me but was worried that it was a "boy thing". I tell her that the computer can't tell you're a girl.

I was saddened when LEGO started branding their toy blocks for girls (big, dumb pink blocks) and for boys (all the cool blocks and kits). The gender division is introduced to kids very young.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#177

Post by mpyne »

jimzvz wrote: post #159
jimzvz wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The contexts for the two groups are completely different, thus a simple "swapping the two labels and seeing what results" gives absolutely no insight. This is an argument that has been used by most proponents of discriminatory practices.

Is this not true?

Have you never been in a minority status in anything you've done? I'm not talking about race, just situations where your background/traits/etc. are much different than those of the majority of your peers.

I started as an "odd man out" for practically every major peer group I've ever been involved in and I can tell you, it sucks. The way I've successfully acclimated is usually with highly informal "incubator" groups that help with the integration process by breaking it up into steps. These groups were so informal that we didn't even think of it as such, but in retrospect that's what had happened.

But an actual majority wouldn't need this exact type of support, they already have been acclimated to it and can easily integrate into similar peer groups, so it's not even an exact comparison.

But to the extent that this GitHub project is focused on ensuring that this particular minority of this particular peer group has a place to go for support and successfully working their way into the larger peer group I think it's a wonderful thing. Hopefully someday we can discard it as redundant and unnecessary, but today it can be very helpful.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#178

Post by LockeWatts »

rayiner wrote: post #171
LockeWatts wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So your dichotomy about "meritocracy" is short-sighted. There is nothing "meritocratic" about indulging male culture to keep a field male-dominated. Indeed, that's anti-meritocratic I don't see how a blind meritocracy is indulging male culture. Isn't the whole point of a meritocracy the idea that the only thing it cares about is performance?

What you have in CS now isn't "blind meritocracy." If the male culture is turning away qualified women, you don't have a meritocracy.

Except that doesn't make sense.

Given the assumption that it's a meritocracy, then qualified women won't be turned away.

If women are being turned away, then they should be being turned away at a rate equal to men, relative to their applicant pool.

If there are less women applying in the first place, then the problem exists in the educational\ preparatory stages of one's career. The solution should be directed there, not trying to correct for the problem afterwards.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#179

Post by hackinthebochs »

LockeWatts wrote: post #172
hackinthebochs wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism, sexism, etc are necessarily wrong. However, discrimination is not necessarily wrong. Whether its wrong depends on the context and the motivations. I submit that this is a valid form of "discrimination".

First, nothing is necessarily wrong, as that would imply an absolute rather than relative morality. All morality is relativistic. Secondly, I would argue that your list, from my point of view, denoted 'racism, sexism, etc' is more rigorously defined as 'discriminating based on anything other than merit'. Given that assumption, discrimination by race or sex for any reason would be wrong. With those premises, I stand b…

And I would have to reject those premises.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#180

Post by Evenjos »

bestlai wrote: post #168

I’ll just jump the shark. I feel sick and irritated today, so I won’t pretend political correctness. Fuck this feminist, sexist shit. First, I am the most orderly developer you could ever meet. My desk is absolutely clean. Everything has a well defined technical purpose there. Whenever I leave, those purposes cease to exist so I eagerly remove or put away those objects. I could walk in any day, pick up my desktop and…

Defensive much? You might want to actually read the article before you write a post.
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