Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

On being a girl in computer science - a confession

zanytomato.tumblr.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 305 posts

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#81

Post by stcredzero »

javajosh wrote: post #33

1. What's the CS gender ratio? Assuming it's bad... 2. Is it bad because anyone is actively discouraging girls? 3. Is it bad because girls just tend not to like it? This post assumes #1, undermines those who claim #2 (anecdotally), and reenforces #3. And I find this very, very easy to believe. Computer science is an unusually unforgiving discipline, and it takes an odd combination of arrogance and masochism to get th…

> The arrogance is a craving for the kind of exceptionalism that any wannabe astronaut (the author and myself included, of course) understands quite well.

I think those attitudes are now harmful at least as often as they are helpful. Even better than the type of person stuck in one mode or the other would be someone who can switch depending on the situation.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#82

Post by cpher »

Well, I can't speak from a girl's perspective, but I can tell you about my great aunt, Betty Jennings Bartik, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Bartik) one of the first female "computers," and original programmers on ENIAC. She passed away a couple of years ago, but she'd be the first to tell OP to suck it up and forge her own path in the world. Aunt Betty didn't take shit from anyone and she made that clear, by her intellect and attitude. And if a smart woman in WW2 can earn the respect of male colleagues, then I'm sure the same can be said of women today. Quit waiting for the red carpet treatment because it ain't coming.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#83

Post by Steuard »

minamea wrote: post #18
mitchty wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess i disagree to a bit. I understand where you're coming from there, but I think "girl only" cs meetups help eliminate a possible burden to get into the computer world. I think for that reason alone they're a good thing. Could it be taken too far? Sure but I don't see that happening right now, and at the moment given how few women are in our field I think more such things are needed to at least reduce the sharp…

> Could it be taken too far? But I'm under the impression that today we offer women-only CS courses and the norm has become women get hired over equally or more qualified men in the name of eradicating sexism. I humbly suggest this is taking it too far. I don't want to automatically get turned down for a job because a woman applied. I don't want to automatically get turned down for CS help because I am the wrong gend…

> I don't want to automatically get turned down for a job because a woman applied. I don't want to automatically get turned down for CS help because I am the wrong gender.

Certainly! Nobody's goal is to reverse the historical situation so that men are systematically shut out of the field in some sort of vengeance for women being shut out for so long. A level playing field is absolutely the goal.

But despite all the progress we've made, there are still many, many places where women have to deal with negative biases as students, as job applicants, and as employees. Women still routinely face exactly the sort of bias that you're concerned about, except that it's no longer socially acceptable for people to admit (even to themselves) that they're doing it. (Different industry, but there was a study not long ago that conclusively demonstrated subtle but meaningful bias against women when hiring science lab techs: fake applications with female names were rated lower than identical applications with male names, by men and women alike.)

So my understanding is that when a company or college explicitly states a policy prioritizing women for help or hiring, they usually hope that this overt boost to female applicants will just cancel out the invisible but just as real biases against them.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#84

Post by RougeFemme »

minamea wrote: post #18
mitchty wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess i disagree to a bit. I understand where you're coming from there, but I think "girl only" cs meetups help eliminate a possible burden to get into the computer world. I think for that reason alone they're a good thing. Could it be taken too far? Sure but I don't see that happening right now, and at the moment given how few women are in our field I think more such things are needed to at least reduce the sharp…

> Could it be taken too far? But I'm under the impression that today we offer women-only CS courses and the norm has become women get hired over equally or more qualified men in the name of eradicating sexism. I humbly suggest this is taking it too far. I don't want to automatically get turned down for a job because a woman applied. I don't want to automatically get turned down for CS help because I am the wrong gend…

I don't think that hiring women over equally or more qualified men is truly the norm, though it did certainly occur in some companies and with some individuals - and I'm sure it still does, to some degree. But I think it's a real stretch to call it the norm. And even if you accept the argument that it's the norm, the practice is certainly failing, isn't it, since men still dominate the ranks of programmers. They are no longer 100%, but they still are a huge majority.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#85

Post by eropple »

ufmace wrote: post #78

The attitudes in this thread seem a little disturbing to me. Let me illustrate with a different example: There are a number of other fields that are consistently dominated by women in the way that programming and CS are by men. Teaching, especially at the elementary-school level and younger, nursing, HR, administrative assistants, and others. Why is there no effort to bring more men into these fields? Is there some "…

> Teaching, especially at the elementary-school level and younger, nursing

Have you stopped to consider that these two (in particular) might be true but you're not in the circles that talk about it? There's significant demand for male elementary school teachers[1] and while I can't find with a couple of quick Google searches, friends of mine who work in the medical field say that there's a drive to get more male nurses because male patients generally seem more comfortable around male nurses.

> Firefighters, soldiers, police, etc. I don't see anywhere near the level of pressure to bring women into these fields as there is for CS/Programming.

I can't speak to firefighters or police (though cursory Googling for the latter seems to indicate nontrivial demand), but the goal of more female enlistment in the military has been ongoing for quite some time.

And in any case, that there may not be such a push for more women in field X does not imply that that is the desired state of affairs in that field--it states only that it's not happening right now. It is happening in software development. And you're on Hacker News: it trends toward software developers. There's going to be more bits perturbed on the topic than regarding firefighters or police.

[1] - http://www.edutopia.org/male-teacher-shortage

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#86

Post by eropple »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #43
gonehome wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that ignoring it isn't the solution. I don't really think exclusive events are the solution either and I'm not convinced they don't make things worse. Tech events shouldn't exclude either gender and when they do (or have events/do things that make one group uncomfortable) they should be called out on it.

The problem is there isn't anything we can do to change your typical tech gathering/event to not be intimidating or uncomfortable for a large number of girls. It's known that girls are more vocal and proactive in a classroom full of just girls. The intimidation factor is something that cannot be fixed at this level. It's not just a matter of banning certain types of humor.

Sure--hence groups like LinuxChix.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#87

Post by RougeFemme »

taeric wrote: post #2

Similarly, I have to confess I am a little worried about this with my daughter. It is ridiculously clear that she does not do your stereotypical girl activities already at the age of 3. To the point that some of the boys in her "pre-k" class have actually thought that spiderman was a girl's thing. For the most part, my wife and I both think this is hilarious. And we are fine letting her do whatever she wants. However…

I think the best thing you can do for your daughter is help her learn not to be bothered whenever she thinks and acts outside the norms. Teach her to be comfortable with who and what she is. Of course, mom and dad will have to feel that way, too. :-) It seems that you do feel that way, - you just need to pass that strength on to her.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#88

Post by Evbn »

kelnos wrote: post #46
cwzwarich wrote: post #10

@PLT_Zizek the platitude that male sexism is keeping women from entering CS only reinforces the notion that the field belongs to men by default https://twitter.com/PLT_Zizek/status/212662401525481472

Of course PLT_Zizek is a joke account, but: "default" isn't the right word. CS of course doesn't belong to men by default, but it does de-facto "belong" to men as things stand now.

Zizek is a humorous commentator, not a joke account. You may disagree with him, but he isn't writing sarcastically.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#89

Post by AdrianRossouw »

ufmace wrote: post #78

The attitudes in this thread seem a little disturbing to me. Let me illustrate with a different example: There are a number of other fields that are consistently dominated by women in the way that programming and CS are by men. Teaching, especially at the elementary-school level and younger, nursing, HR, administrative assistants, and others. Why is there no effort to bring more men into these fields? Is there some "…

Being a male elementary school teacher can be a very dangerous career choice in the era of "stranger danger" and the like.

And I think that the conversation focuses on programming here, but there is a genuine issue with girls being disinterested in STEM careers.

There's a chance that the world is missing out on the next female einstein, because she became a nurse instead of being encouraged to follow her dreams.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#90

Post by hackinthebochs »

ScottyE wrote: post #65
hackinthebochs wrote: post #24

The problem with this type of the thinking is the same thing you see when it comes to racism in general: "If we just stop mentioning it, it will go away", "programs to counter racism are racist", etc. Not talking about racism/sexism etc will not make it go away. Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on; they are internalizing it subconsciously whether we brin…

But you can't force an interest in CS down people's throats. Holding "women for CS" events only makes the women in CS feel even more isolated from their male peers and does nothing to promote CS to women who do not know about it. Like you say, kids are very perceptive. The only way to truly eradicate the stereotype is to create a world in which the stereotype doesn't exist. And that is done by giving all kids, regard…

>Holding "women for CS" events only makes the women in CS feel even more isolated from their male peers

I don't think this is true at all (and usually you never see women say this, just males rationalizing their position). Women centric CS events are to encourage those who have an interest but may have been hesitant for some reason to seek it out. Or to encourage those who are students to seek help and find comraderie/validation.

A common theme from women is that they often feel like imposters in intro CS classes because its always guys who seem to be so much further ahead. Of course, guys will chime in that they experience impostor-syndrome just as much. The difference is that girls have an immediate re-enforcing explanation for that sense of being out of place: you don't belong because you're a woman. This is the curse of being a minority in a field that you aren't well represented in. This is why these CS-centric events are important.

Post reply on HN