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On being a girl in computer science - a confession

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Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#51

Post by timr »

javajosh wrote: post #33

1. What's the CS gender ratio? Assuming it's bad... 2. Is it bad because anyone is actively discouraging girls? 3. Is it bad because girls just tend not to like it? This post assumes #1, undermines those who claim #2 (anecdotally), and reenforces #3. And I find this very, very easy to believe. Computer science is an unusually unforgiving discipline, and it takes an odd combination of arrogance and masochism to get th…

"Computer science is an unusually unforgiving discipline, and it takes an odd combination of arrogance and masochism to get through it."

That's just a gigantic load of horseshit, and the inference that women don't go into CS because it's hard is insulting to women.

There are more women in physics than in CS. Is that a more forgiving discipline? How about biochemistry, or cell biology? Both are getting near parity, even at the graduate level. And hey, let's not worry about medicine, or law...both of which are insanely "masochistic", but attract females in droves. (Two seconds of googling tells me that medicine is basically 50/50, and law is close to it, with some schools having more women than men).

Women are just as desirous and capable as men when it comes to pursuing "unforgiving" careers. And there's no way that CS is more demanding or masochistic than, say, medicine (get back to me when every CS grad has to pull 48-hour residency shifts, and is entrusted with responsibilities that can kill people).

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#52

Post by minamea »

dreamfactory wrote: post #37
minamea wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Could it be taken too far? But I'm under the impression that today we offer women-only CS courses and the norm has become women get hired over equally or more qualified men in the name of eradicating sexism. I humbly suggest this is taking it too far. I don't want to automatically get turned down for a job because a woman applied. I don't want to automatically get turned down for CS help because I am the wrong gend…

> I don't want to automatically get turned down for a job because a woman applied. If that were a real policy (which I don't think it is), I suppose the point is that even then the odds would be against it impacting you as there are so few women applicants.

But still morally wrong.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#53

Post by stygianguest »

jfoster wrote: post #30
hackinthebochs wrote: post #24

The problem with this type of the thinking is the same thing you see when it comes to racism in general: "If we just stop mentioning it, it will go away", "programs to counter racism are racist", etc. Not talking about racism/sexism etc will not make it go away. Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on; they are internalizing it subconsciously whether we brin…

I don't think that translates. Racism is hatred based on race. Hatred is something that needs to be addressed more directly because it won't go away on its own. Isn't the gender imbalance in tech something that is self-perpetuating the more visible it is? If it were closed, would it stay closed?

Racism is not about hate. That is only the most extreme form and hardly the most damaging kind (in our society; there's always genocide). Racism is the differentiation (discrimination) of people by race: assuming a black guy will not be into d&d. Even if it is statistically true, such stereotypes are damaging in two ways: (1) we wont invite him for a dnd session even if he would've loved it; and (2) the same person would probably have declined anyway even though he would've liked it.

Discrimination impedes freedom in many ways. Legally, most obstacles have been removed. We need to change peoples/our preconceptions of others as well as ourselves.

Emancipation requires changing our habits. Learning something new, especially when it goes against established patterns, is achieved most effectively when the new is made explitit and even exaggerated.

I think GP is spot on. The gender imbalance is visible even if we pretend it doesn't exist. The only way to change it, is to force it. That will be damn hard and totally worth it.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#56

Post by mindcrime »

noonespecial wrote: post #55

My daughter has told me a few times that she might like to program like me but was worried that it was a "boy thing". I tell her that the computer can't tell you're a girl.

So here's the question: How old is your daughter? And where do you suppose she got the idea that programming is "a boy thing"? I suspect that the answers to these questions is a good lead to understanding why women are under-represented among programmers / techies.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#57

Post by astrieanna »

aln wrote: post #17
gonehome wrote: post #3

This closely aligns with my thoughts on the issue. While I understand the good intentions behind girl only events, women in CS meetups and girl geek dinners/mentors something about it feels wrong to me. It's like fighting an exclusion problem with just a different type of exclusion and simultaneously reinforcing the divisions they're rallying against.

There are good and bad qualities to the CS events catered towards women. I think they are good for women of certain age groups (maybe 18 and older?) who might have been discouraged from or misinformed about the field. For young girls, these events are probably unnecessary and reinforce the stereotypes. The events and boot camps made specifically for women to learn to code/learn about various opportunities are great,…

I'm not sure that going to a programming workshop for girls as a kid would have made me think what programming wasn't for girls. Coming to a "not for girls" signal involves realizing that they're having the event to increase female participation, rather than just because they want an all-girls event -- like girls scouts being just for girls.

The "for girls" labeling is also for the parents at that age. If you want to have girls signed up, you need their parents to think it's a good idea. Their parents are more likely (I'd think) to be biased that girls probably won't like programming/tech. So they wouldn't think about it as something their daughter would like, except that it's especially for girls. I'm not saying it's great logic, but it seems like it might be a benefit to "for girls" labeling on programming events for kids.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#58

Post by [deleted] »

applecore wrote: post #44
calibraxis wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I'm told, female-only events can work well, because males tend to actively reinforce patriarchy. We are trained to, and often need to be deprogrammed to simply be aware of it. (Just consider our gendered dress codes. Many men would actually consider suicide rather than publicly wear "female" clothes. Most would be kicked out of their workplaces if they showed up in such dress.) So, it is only logical to consider v…

I can't tell if you're joking or not. Or maybe I'm just reinforcing the patriarchy.

[deleted]

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#59

Post by mitchty »

minamea wrote: post #18
mitchty wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess i disagree to a bit. I understand where you're coming from there, but I think "girl only" cs meetups help eliminate a possible burden to get into the computer world. I think for that reason alone they're a good thing. Could it be taken too far? Sure but I don't see that happening right now, and at the moment given how few women are in our field I think more such things are needed to at least reduce the sharp…

> Could it be taken too far? But I'm under the impression that today we offer women-only CS courses and the norm has become women get hired over equally or more qualified men in the name of eradicating sexism. I humbly suggest this is taking it too far. I don't want to automatically get turned down for a job because a woman applied. I don't want to automatically get turned down for CS help because I am the wrong gend…

So I understand what you're saying about the "women only or prioritization". But, and note I'm obviously a guy, you're assuming the worst possible reasoning for this.

Lets say the whole thing is trying to reverse the course direction of CS to help get more women in the field. We know that having equal amounts of both genders helps and strengthens teams. So while the preferential hiring of women might at first glance appear to be discriminatory, and it may very well be that. The intent might be completely different and the goal of the exercise is to improve the company or teams performance.

Speaking from experience, I prefer more balanced teams. I absolutely hate men only teams because what eventually always seems to happen is alpha/beta male monkey behavior. It is unproductive and I notice a distinct lack of it when there are women around.

Basically I think this is a non-issue to worry about until we get close to 50% of women in CS in general. Given how far behind we are, I'm not even concerned right now. In fact I'd love to join things like rails bridge or whatever just to get things moving forward.

Also note "the HN community" doesn't exist, we're all individuals. This is my own viewpoint and biases. "we" celebrate these things because CS is far too white male centric and that needs to change. We need more viewpoints.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#60

Post by noonespecial »

mindcrime wrote: post #56
noonespecial wrote: post #55

My daughter has told me a few times that she might like to program like me but was worried that it was a "boy thing". I tell her that the computer can't tell you're a girl.

So here's the question: How old is your daughter? And where do you suppose she got the idea that programming is "a boy thing"? I suspect that the answers to these questions is a good lead to understanding why women are under-represented among programmers / techies.

That actually is the question I've been struggling with. She's only 7 and I've tried to keep her quite insulated from that kind of idea but it seems to just bleed in from all over the place.

Since I've tuned out powerless to stop the bias from getting in, I've started to really think about the best way to help her rise above it.

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