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On being a girl in computer science - a confession

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Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#41
post #3

This closely aligns with my thoughts on the issue. While I understand the good intentions behind girl only events, women in CS meetups and girl geek dinners/mentors something about it feels wrong to me. It's like fighting an exclusion problem with just a different type of exclusion and simultaneously reinforcing the divisions they're rallying against.

As I'm told, female-only events can work well, because males tend to actively reinforce patriarchy. We are trained to, and often need to be deprogrammed to simply be aware of it. (Just consider our gendered dress codes. Many men would actually consider suicide rather than publicly wear "female" clothes. Most would be kicked out of their workplaces if they showed up in such dress.)

So, it is only logical to consider voluntarily meeting in a space free of such disruptive people. (I'm not talking about the over-the-top Ruby brogrammers I know, whose talks feature sexual images of females who fit a narrow range of appearance. It's more mundane and everyday than that.)

It's obviously not a perfect solution, but males are free to educate themselves and undermine their gender roles. Then we wouldn't need to resort to such measures.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#42
post #7

> I grew up in a household where there was no particular attention (that I can recall) given to the fact that as a young woman I could attain whatever career I wanted—it was just a given. > I fear that when you say, for example, that “yes, girls can do anything”, it first plants the idea that there is an inequality, before it attempts to combat this idea. From your post it looks like you had lots of encouragement fro…

She was encouraged to be anything she wanted, not only a "Woman in CS".

It seems like there is more interest in "leveling the playing field" and "balancing the gender ratio" for its own sake than in helping anyone of any gender pursue the career they want.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#43

The problem with this type of the thinking is the same thing you see when it comes to racism in general: "If we just stop mentioning it, it will go away", "programs to counter racism are racist", etc. Not talking about racism/sexism etc will not make it go away. Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on; they are internalizing it subconsciously whether we brin…

I agree that ignoring it isn't the solution. I don't really think exclusive events are the solution either and I'm not convinced they don't make things worse. Tech events shouldn't exclude either gender and when they do (or have events/do things that make one group uncomfortable) they should be called out on it.

The problem is there isn't anything we can do to change your typical tech gathering/event to not be intimidating or uncomfortable for a large number of girls. It's known that girls are more vocal and proactive in a classroom full of just girls. The intimidation factor is something that cannot be fixed at this level. It's not just a matter of banning certain types of humor.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#44
post #3

This closely aligns with my thoughts on the issue. While I understand the good intentions behind girl only events, women in CS meetups and girl geek dinners/mentors something about it feels wrong to me. It's like fighting an exclusion problem with just a different type of exclusion and simultaneously reinforcing the divisions they're rallying against.

As I'm told, female-only events can work well, because males tend to actively reinforce patriarchy. We are trained to, and often need to be deprogrammed to simply be aware of it. (Just consider our gendered dress codes. Many men would actually consider suicide rather than publicly wear "female" clothes. Most would be kicked out of their workplaces if they showed up in such dress.) So, it is only logical to consider v…

I can't tell if you're joking or not. Or maybe I'm just reinforcing the patriarchy.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#45
If you look at the real pioneers of computer science, people like Turing and Babbage, two women jump right off the page: Ada Byron and Grace Hopper. Women belong in CS, because it belongs to them. They were there at the start, just as much as the men.

As a 55-year-old man, I'm pretty sure I've experienced discrimination because of my age. Situations where people couldn't see beyond the wrinkles and gray hair and see the experience and skills. I know the same thing happens to women too, because they are different from the vision of an ideal employee the employer had in mind. I don't think women managers are immune to this either. I've worked in two departments headed by a woman who made all the hiring decisions and the entire team they hired was men. There are definitely barriers.

But I agree with the author that 'women in CS' programs aren't the answer. Success is. Each generation of CS pioneers includes a few more women with passion and intellect like Hopper or Bryon that cannot be ignored, and they will make it a lot easier for equally qualified women in subsequent generations, because when all is said and done, what you can do ultimately beats who you are in this field.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#46

@PLT_Zizek the platitude that male sexism is keeping women from entering CS only reinforces the notion that the field belongs to men by default https://twitter.com/PLT_Zizek/status/212662401525481472

Of course PLT_Zizek is a joke account, but: "default" isn't the right word. CS of course doesn't belong to men by default, but it does de-facto "belong" to men as things stand now.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#47
>I liked it because it was hard, and considered hard. >And I didn’t even notice that I was the only female in the >class— a lack of awareness that persisted well into >university.

I took programming classes in high school, and assumed that the hugely skewed gender ratio was just my school being weird. It wasn't until people were surprised/impressed that I was planning to major in CS that I started googling, and discovered that the gender ratio is a thing.

> I simple never fit in with “the girls”. > Because girls don’t do things that I like.

I often feel more uncomfortable at women in CS events than just plain CS ones. Partially, it's because the actual activities are less interesting; I'm there because it's "for women", despite the less interesting/ less technical content. Partially, it's because, after 4 years of CS courses, I feel like I'm in the wrong place when more than 35%-ish of the people in a room are female. Partially, it's because I tend to feel more out of place among women. I don't dress like they do - no makeup, unisex tshirts, more interested in coding than parties - and when I'm in a room full of normal women who happen to do CS, I feel more alone than in a group of CS people. If I'm in the group of people who are supposed to be my minority demographic or whatever, and I feel like I _really_ don't fit in with them, then doesn't that mean I don't fit at all?

I tend to like unpopular/strange pieces of programming (sometimes partially because "it [i]s hard, and considered hard"). I'm used to having different technical interests than the CS/tech people I hang out with. I just feel that a lot more when I'm at a women-in-tech event. Either there's a bigger disconnect or I care more deeply that I don't fit. I view it mostly as a personal insecurity, but I really long for the emotional validation of meeting someone who's female, doesn't care about clothes, and has vaguely similar technical/programming interests. Normal CS groups of sufficient size include people who fit on everything but gender; in my experience, women-in-cs groups provide examples that match only on gender.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#48

This is the standard argument against affirmative action as well. Of course affirmative action is more about addressing pay inequality and discriminatory hiring practices, while the focus of this post is more around changing cultural attitudes toward certain activities. Is it possible to separate the two? That is, to have laws in place which will address the historical wrongs while simultaneously building a culture o…

Affirmative action carries the connotation of something happening at the expense of someone else (positive discrimination in a zero-sum system), so I think it does a disservice to the side in favour of women-only events to use that analogy.

The article makes it sound like there's some terrible cost to doing these events, and I just these factors are exaggerated and the positive aspects ignored entirely.

Everything has trade-offs, and to discount women-only events without mentioning any of the advantages makes it sound more like an excuse to avoid events than an argument.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#49
post #38
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that translates. Racism is hatred based on race. Hatred is something that needs to be addressed more directly because it won't go away on its own. Isn't the gender imbalance in tech something that is self-perpetuating the more visible it is? If it were closed, would it stay closed?

I wouldn't characterize racism as hatred only. There are many more subtle (even sometimes unconscious) forms of racism. Racism runs the whole spectrum from ignorant misconceptions all the way up to irrational hatred.

People on their couch at home will still laugh at a blatantly racist joke and not think much of it depending on the target.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#50
At my university, the drop-out rate was high enough for everyone as it was. The CS department held a few couple of social gatherings for the women there - dinners and such - and it really boosted morale amongst the people there, some of whom were thinking about dropping out.

It's also worth keeping in mind that there are universities that don't have a dorm culture, which makes it even more important to create a social support system.

Please consider what there is to gain - and feel free to weigh it against whatever there may be to lose - before discounting the idea of such a concept.

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