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Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

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Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#191

Post by mhartl »

fr0sty wrote: post #121
gambiting wrote: post #119

Reddit actually had a few good points against it: 1) Flying Nazguls, first and most obvious - and Sauron would know they are coming, being unoccupied with war with Gondor. 2) By skipping Rohan and successively Gondor, Aragorn never becomes a king, kingdom of humans still most likely falls. 3) Nobody solves the Saruman threat, so in the meantime he becomes more and more powerful - probably crafts his own ring or in an…

One nit-pick: The Peter Jackson film shows Saruman stabbed by Wormtongue before falling to his death from the top of Orthanc. Furthermore, I believe it is only included in the extended edition of The Two Towers (but I could be wrong on that point).

Furthermore, I believe it is only included in the extended edition of The Two Towers (but I could be wrong on that point).

You're right if you s/The Two Towers/Return of the King/

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#192

Post by jacoblyles »

dageshi wrote: post #50

Crows. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Crebain If crows can be sent into the world to hunt for the ringbearer they can certainly patrol the skies around Mordor. Crows spy the eagles entering Mordor and forces are dispatched to counter them.

Crows also may be used offensively. They aren't much good against giant eagles, but in quantities of a thousand they may be, especially if the eagles have to worry about transporting a substantial burden of hobbits.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#194

Post by angryasian »

comrade_ogilvy wrote: post #185
angryasian wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is quite possible he would be able to conjure up something that would end up in the whole endeavor delivering the ring to him, instead of destroying it. This is the exact argument the article is arguing against. You can only make assumptions based on what is known in the story. The author makes many valid arguments on why Sauron more than likely would not see it coming if it were to happen this way. >quite possi…

Both the pro- and anti-eagle arguments make assumptions. The pro-eagle argument is built on assumptions about the limits of power. We know that Sauron is unequaled in power among the Maia. We know that Sauron built mountain ranges. We know that Saruman easily overcame Gandalf. We know that Gandalf has powers that allowed him to overcome a Balrog. Tolkien has made the artistic choice to shield our eyes from overt magi…

>Assuming the non-existence of great magical power in the hands of Sauron is just foolishness.

then he should of knew of their plan too. Is it really secret if there is no limit to his power.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#195

Post by dfabulich »

Steuard wrote: post #153
zeteo wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would venture that there were many possible alternate decisions at various points in the plot, and discussing all of them thoroughly was not necessarily a literary enhancement. The "eagles plan" itself is fan fiction, and refusing to accept more "fan fiction" in response to it is a bit disingenuous.

I understand the point you're making here, and I've certainly seen plenty of "fan fiction" theories taken far too seriously in discussions of Tolkien. But for my own pride's sake, I would attempt to draw a distinction between those "fan theories" and the sort of analysis that we used to do on the Tolkien Usenet newsgroups (including rec.arts.books.tolkien, which inspired this article: I was involved in conversations…

Interesting. Here's the FAQ response to the eagle question: http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/History.html#Eagles

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#196

Post by lloeki »

dageshi wrote: post #97
xymostech wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the whole article? "After Frodo and Sam entered Mordor thru Cirith Ungol, Sauron had fully ten days to contemplate the purpose of their mission into Mordor, and did not realize that their plan was to destroy the Ring until the last moment. Given that the Mouth of Sauron refers to the intruders as "spies", Sauron's most likely thought would be that the eagles are merely flying over his realm for reconnais…

Two spies aren't going to do much inside Mordor, in practice they've somehow got to be able to communicate information outside of Mordor, or get out themselves. Either impossible or very very difficult. In terms of being "spies" they are an annoyance, not a huge threat. A giant eagle patrolling your skies is the complete opposite, it can see everything, all your forces, where they're going, what they're doing and it…

> A giant eagle patrolling your skies is the complete opposite

Not even patrolling. Aimed full speed at Mt Doom in a straight line (according to the proposed map and speed vs stealth hypothesis). It would be reasonable they could be spotted early on, and suddenly the question Sauron has to answer is: "What could a small, fast air force sent directly towards Mt Doom be up to?", to which the answer is obvious. This would make him likely to set up something (interception, barrage...) sufficiently likely to jeopardise the mission. The fact that it is not discussed as a strategy is a much better argument as to why it's a plot hole than any technical point. Still, at that time it is not known what kind of forces stand in Mordor. Besides, the protagonists may not be seeing the task as being so urgent at it looks towards the very end. This makes a prudent approach more reasonable than an all-in decision.

My very personal hunch is that the hobbits (incl. Gollum) are supposed to do this completely by themselves. Many times Gandalf is asked if things will succeed, and many times he worries about their situation and merely hopes they fare well. Still, he refuses to leverage any form of magical or network power to gather any intel — however remote so as not to disclose their location — regarding their progress and simply waits for something to happen. As a plot device, he basically delegates this to Gollum which stands as the guide towards Mt Doom and the Evil that Frodon has to stand against, hence making him stay on the Good side. It is likely that without Gollum, however short the timing (e.g in a supposed fast-flight), Frodon would succumb to the ring.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#197

Post by snogglethorpe »

snowwrestler wrote: post #168

There are a ton of plot holes in the LOTR. Why did Aragorn run off in the dark at Weathertop, when everyone knew they would be besieged? Why does the ring not affect Tom Bombadil? Why does everyone put up with Wormtongue in Rohan? Why don't the orcs in Mordor immediately recognize Frodo and Sam as non-orcs? Why does it matter that Eowyn is a woman not a man? How convenient is it that Boromir showed up just in time fo…

> There are a ton of plot holes in the LOTR. .... Why does the ring not affect Tom Bombadil

Wait, why is that a plot-hole...? Tom Bombadil is explicitly "different" than everything else, outside the normal world, time, moving along a different path, etc. The ring's lack of power over him was shown to help illustrate that.

[I thought Tom Bombadil was one of the most interesting characters in LotR... a shame he shows up so little. Although maybe if he played a bigger part, it would have diminished the sense of something greater and more mysterious, briefly glimpsed, which I guess is much of his appeal...]

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#198

Post by simonh »

jamesmiller5 wrote: post #63
dageshi wrote: post #50

Crows. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Crebain If crows can be sent into the world to hunt for the ringbearer they can certainly patrol the skies around Mordor. Crows spy the eagles entering Mordor and forces are dispatched to counter them.

It's interesting that almost every point in the other replies is already explained in the article except yours. I'm surprised the crows didn't spot Frodo as he approached Mordor. It's reasonable to assume they were covering more ground away from Mordor already though.

By that point Sauron was convinced (among other things, by Pippin and Aragorn's contact with the Palantir) that the Ring was in Gondor.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#199

Post by simonh »

patrickgzill wrote: post #164
meerita wrote: post #51

I still ask myself why Elrond didn't just push to the lava the human king when he refused to drop the ring. Knowing the pain, the evil of the matter, letting him go freely with the ring just made this story a bit silly.

It was his blood relative, for one. Two, they did not necessarily know the full power of the Ring. Third, Elves don't go around killing people without cause.

#Ahem# Aqualonde #ahem#.
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