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Salary Negotiations: What is Possible When There's no More Money

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Re: Salary Negotiations: What is Possible When There's no More Money

#71

Post by jdotjdot »

SatvikBeri wrote: post #55
crusso wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loyalty is only meaningful in the sense that your company-specific knowledge makes you more valuable to the company. I couldn't disagree more. Loyalty is its own benefit that's worth compensating people for. I value people who come into a group and do more than just contribute a bunch of code. I value people who contribute to the culture and the framework of the ongoing enterprise. Furthermore, I want newcomers to se…

It sounds like we actually agree in practice and I've just heard the word "loyalty" used differently from the way you've heard it used. Apologies if I used the wrong definition, and let me try to clarify my point: I completely agree that contributing to culture and the business is valuable. What annoys me is how much a lot of companies value seniority over anything else. The attitude of "Well, X is older and has been…

What you're talking about is seniority, not loyalty. Someone can have 30 years at a company and still be not loyal if their heart's not in it, they plan to jump ship, they take advantage of others, they embezzle, etc. Seniority is length of time employed at the company. Loyalty is investment in and contributions to the work community.

And that kind of loyalty makes a company a nice place to work, because what you have is a community of people who are invested in each other.

Re: Salary Negotiations: What is Possible When There's no More Money

#72

Post by psweber »

Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #65
aaronblohowiak wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the main reason I am a contractor -- I take a LOT of time off. For my clients, it is normal for contractors to have gaps in availability. For my on-site colleagues, they know that the vacation is unpaid.

Increasingly it feels that contracting is the most straight forward way to work for an organisation. They pay X, they get Y. No messing about with broken promises and vague commitments.

I've also been able to comfortably do contracts for companies that have worked friends (who are full time employees) to the bone. If they want a 60 hour week from me, they have to pay me 50% more.

Re: Salary Negotiations: What is Possible When There's no More Money

#73

Post by zerooneinfinity »

toyg wrote: post #61
SatvikBeri wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like we actually agree in practice and I've just heard the word "loyalty" used differently from the way you've heard it used. Apologies if I used the wrong definition, and let me try to clarify my point: I completely agree that contributing to culture and the business is valuable. What annoys me is how much a lot of companies value seniority over anything else. The attitude of "Well, X is older and has been…

People are lazy. Calculating seniority is easy and "objective", not controversial; in fact, it's so linear you could even write a program to automate it (I bet somebody did just that). Evaluating performance or actual returns to the business, that's hard; the metrics are often very subjective, and people will start arguing. Rule #6582 of the Safe Manager: Don't Give People Excuses To Argue. So seniority it is. This w…

Employee evaluation forms is not a good metric to evaluate performance?

Re: Salary Negotiations: What is Possible When There's no More Money

#74

Post by pavanky »

droithomme wrote: post #70

Article assumes a situation where company can not pay market rate because there is "no money". No money means either they are not profitable and not funded enough to succeed, or they are lying to the candidate. Whichever one it is doesn't matter because in either scenario accepting position is a poor move for a talented and capable candidate in an environment when there are many positions available for competent peop…

I see that you are not a risk taker.

Re: Salary Negotiations: What is Possible When There's no More Money

#75

Post by wpietri »

Karunamon wrote: post #62
praptak wrote: post #22

This is in line with what one of my previous bosses taught me about negotiations: negotiation is about truly understanding the interests of the other side. In this case even those they are not aware of. He also used to put crap clauses into contract drafts (if he knew they'd be passed through lawyers), so that the lawyers can demonstrate being useful without messing with the actual matter of the contract. A true exam…

>..so that the lawyers can demonstrate being useful without messing with the actual matter of the contract There's actually a programming version of this referenced on an old StackOverflow question - a "Duck", i.e. a feature submitted so management will take issue with it and not something else more important. http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/07/new-programming-jar... - see entry #5

Interestingly, map-makers put in fake geographical features, known as "bunnies", so that they can catch people copying them:

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Mapmakers-sleight-of-hand...

Re: Salary Negotiations: What is Possible When There's no More Money

#76

Post by wpietri »

droithomme wrote: post #70

Article assumes a situation where company can not pay market rate because there is "no money". No money means either they are not profitable and not funded enough to succeed, or they are lying to the candidate. Whichever one it is doesn't matter because in either scenario accepting position is a poor move for a talented and capable candidate in an environment when there are many positions available for competent peop…

That's true only if you value money and nothing else.

I know plenty of people who work at below-market wages for nonprofits because they support the mission. This fellow had some of that, but he also valued surfing time more than extra cash. People also value recognition, good colleagues, solid benefits, low stress, and a bunch of other things.

Just because people value different things than you doesn't make them wrong. De gustibus non est disputandum.

Re: Salary Negotiations: What is Possible When There's no More Money

#77

Post by EwanToo »

Articulate wrote: post #32
EwanToo wrote: post #30

Is it just me, or is it weird that this brand new blog (really just an advert for a writing company) has had 3 blog posts, all 3 have been submitted to HN (2 by the same person), and all 3 have gotten pretty high scores? The other 2 stories being: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5304317 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5292431 They must be good writers!

EwanToo I am the writer- those two guys just showed me the site. I used to blog on my company website (for like a month) but I quit because it never went anywhere- but when it gets posted here people talk about it- comment etc. made me want to write more.

I'm glad to hear you're a real person then :)

Re: Salary Negotiations: What is Possible When There's no More Money

#78

Post by droithomme »

wpietri wrote: post #76
droithomme wrote: post #70

Article assumes a situation where company can not pay market rate because there is "no money". No money means either they are not profitable and not funded enough to succeed, or they are lying to the candidate. Whichever one it is doesn't matter because in either scenario accepting position is a poor move for a talented and capable candidate in an environment when there are many positions available for competent peop…

That's true only if you value money and nothing else. I know plenty of people who work at below-market wages for nonprofits because they support the mission. This fellow had some of that, but he also valued surfing time more than extra cash. People also value recognition, good colleagues, solid benefits, low stress, and a bunch of other things. Just because people value different things than you doesn't make them wro…

Those claims are fallacious.

It has nothing to do with the supposed greed that you absurdly assign to the engineer. It has to do with critical evaluation of the company's financial condition. A company that can not pay market rate because they don't have enough money can't afford to be in business and will not continue to do so for much longer.

There are lots of jobs out there, just like there are plenty of potential romantic partners. Sure, someone could date a homeless crack addict. Perhaps those who don't do so are shallow according to the same sort of argument being used here.

Re: Salary Negotiations: What is Possible When There's no More Money

#79

Post by droithomme »

pavanky wrote: post #74
droithomme wrote: post #70

Article assumes a situation where company can not pay market rate because there is "no money". No money means either they are not profitable and not funded enough to succeed, or they are lying to the candidate. Whichever one it is doesn't matter because in either scenario accepting position is a poor move for a talented and capable candidate in an environment when there are many positions available for competent peop…

I see that you are not a risk taker.

There are reasonable and foolish risks. Only a fool takes a foolish risk.

Re: Salary Negotiations: What is Possible When There's no More Money

#80

Post by RougeFemme »

aaronblohowiak wrote: post #42
e40 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll play devil's advocate here: making special deals on benefits other than salary is a land mine. Everyone is used to the fact that people are paid differently, but people are used to uniform benefits (all you out there: please don't call out your exception to the rule... it really is generally a rule). It's likely to have a negative effect or morale, whereas giving you more salary won't. (Yes, people find out thes…

This is the main reason I am a contractor -- I take a LOT of time off. For my clients, it is normal for contractors to have gaps in availability. For my on-site colleagues, they know that the vacation is unpaid.

Also, some contracting companies now give their long-time folks paid vacation. The "vacation" rate may not be as high as the "working" rate, but it still beats a blank.
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