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Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

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Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#161

Post by stcredzero »

talmand wrote: post #146
stcredzero wrote: post #138

> Not mentioned is my favorite objection, which is that Gwaihir, the Lord of the Eagles, is ... a being of great power, and as such should not be trusted carrying the One Ring, even indirectly. The corrupting strength of the Ring is clearly stronger as one approaches Mordor--Sam and Frodo both understand that wearing the Ring within Mordor would be catastrophic. In Tolkien's universe, power calls to power, and there…

Easy objection, Gwaihir could simply not go.

We know nothing of the culture of the giant eagles. It might be dishonorable as their leader for him not to.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#162

Post by Tycho »

zeteo wrote: post #38

As the article points out, it's a question of stealth versus speed, but speed is not necessarily preferable. The powers of Sauron, especially deep within his own domain, are indeed unknown. With even an hour to react, it is quite possible he would be able to conjure up something that would end up in the whole endeavor delivering the ring to him, instead of destroying it. On the other hand, the stealthiness of hobbits…

They could just fly at night.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#164

Post by patrickgzill »

meerita wrote: post #51

I still ask myself why Elrond didn't just push to the lava the human king when he refused to drop the ring. Knowing the pain, the evil of the matter, letting him go freely with the ring just made this story a bit silly.

It was his blood relative, for one. Two, they did not necessarily know the full power of the Ring. Third, Elves don't go around killing people without cause.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#165

Post by pjungwir »

Jd wrote: post #59
btilly wrote: post #52

Tolkien used the eagles as his standard deus ex machina. - Dwarves + Bilbo + Gandalf stuck in burning trees with enemies around? The eagles to the rescue! - How to wrap up the Battle of the 5 armies when all is lost? The eagles are coming! - How to rescue Gandalf from Sauruman! The eagles! - How to rescue Gandalf from the top of a mountain after an epic battle with a balrog? The eagles! - How to rescue Frodo and Sam…

Somewhat curiously, the "deus ex machina," usually referred to as cheap trick in contemporary commentary on literature/theatre/film, was an expected and appropriate resolution in classical theatre. One might find in Fortinbras Shakespeare's own descending god, although he presides over a funeral rather than a positive resolution (the preferred outcome of virtually all American theatre).

Actually Aristotle criticized using the "machina" (one of several instruments used in Greek theater) to resolve a plot difficulty:

http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/poetics.2.2.html

(search for "deus ex")

I think Aristophanes also made fun of it, but I can't find that reference now.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#167

Post by jackalope »

dbbolton wrote: post #157
jackalope wrote: post #90

One merely has to refer to RFC 1149[1] to determine why this solution is obviously unacceptable: "Avian carriers can provide high delay, low throughput, and low altitude service." "...only guarantees best effort delivery, loss of a carrier can be tolerated." "...storms can cause data loss." "Audit trails are automatically generated, and can often be found on logs and cable trays." And probably most important: "Securi…

But is it fitting to apply the findings of trials with real world birds to the sapient Middle-earth eagles?

Are we to believe that these are some sort of magic eagles to which the laws of physics do not apply?

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#168

Post by snowwrestler »

There are a ton of plot holes in the LOTR. Why did Aragorn run off in the dark at Weathertop, when everyone knew they would be besieged? Why does the ring not affect Tom Bombadil? Why does everyone put up with Wormtongue in Rohan? Why don't the orcs in Mordor immediately recognize Frodo and Sam as non-orcs? Why does it matter that Eowyn is a woman not a man? How convenient is it that Boromir showed up just in time for the Council? How convenient is it that Gollum falls over the cliff edge while dancing around? Etc.

My point is that the value of LOTR is not the plot. It's the themes and characters, which the plot exists (with all its holes) to serve.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#169

Post by jtheory »

jackalope wrote: post #167
dbbolton wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is it fitting to apply the findings of trials with real world birds to the sapient Middle-earth eagles?

Are we to believe that these are some sort of magic eagles to which the laws of physics do not apply?

Sentience adds significant value (like far better risk avoidance than instinct can provide) with no magic involved.

The whole point is not that the eagles plan would be foolproof -- just that it would be a hell of a lot smarter than the plan they chose. Hence, plot hole.

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