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Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

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Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#61

Post by Jd »

gcv wrote: post #15
danso wrote: post #4

I wonder how much of the thematic blindspot had to do with the technology of the day? The books were reportedly started on soon after The Hobbit (1939ish), before flight was the dominant theater for war. Even though the books were not published until after WW2, when aerial warfare became the new front of war, it seems that Tolkien's main experience in war was the hideous ground fighting in WWI, and he himself rebuffe…

His son Christopher served in the Royal Air Force in the early 1940s. It also seems unlikely JRRT would overlook the importance of air power as the Luftwaffe bombed the British Isles while he worked on the books during the war.

JRRT, in fact, loathed airplanes and forbade his son from flying in one. Numerous quotations on the horrors of modern technology (airplanes foremost among them) can be found in his letters to Christopher.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#62

Post by pyre »

bhauer wrote: post #35

I can't believe no one realizes the obvious: Gandalf's "Summon Eagles" spell has a very long cooldown, many decades in length. It was still on cooldown from his use in the Hobbit. The One Ring melting resets all cooldowns, so he decided to use it to pick the hobbits up for a return ride. Obviously.

"Summon Eagles" was used 3 times in LotR.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#63

Post by jamesmiller5 »

dageshi wrote: post #50

Crows. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Crebain If crows can be sent into the world to hunt for the ringbearer they can certainly patrol the skies around Mordor. Crows spy the eagles entering Mordor and forces are dispatched to counter them.

It's interesting that almost every point in the other replies is already explained in the article except yours.

I'm surprised the crows didn't spot Frodo as he approached Mordor. It's reasonable to assume they were covering more ground away from Mordor already though.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#64

Post by NoodleIncident »

dageshi wrote: post #50

Crows. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Crebain If crows can be sent into the world to hunt for the ringbearer they can certainly patrol the skies around Mordor. Crows spy the eagles entering Mordor and forces are dispatched to counter them.

Not just around Mordor, either, the party had to hide from them quite a few times. I think this is the answer.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#65

Post by btilly »

calhoun137 wrote: post #60
btilly wrote: post #52

Tolkien used the eagles as his standard deus ex machina. - Dwarves + Bilbo + Gandalf stuck in burning trees with enemies around? The eagles to the rescue! - How to wrap up the Battle of the 5 armies when all is lost? The eagles are coming! - How to rescue Gandalf from Sauruman! The eagles! - How to rescue Gandalf from the top of a mountain after an epic battle with a balrog? The eagles! - How to rescue Frodo and Sam…

From Unfinished Tales-The Istari: "Eagles are Manwe’s birds, and they play a much more interventioinst role in the earlier ages because the Valar played a more interevtionist role in earlier ages of ME. The Eagles thus effectively withdraw in the Third Age other than for the intervention at Orthanc and at Mount Doom, as the Valar themselves no longer directly intervene-using instead the Istari, who themselves have st…

And that is a good thematic reason to not use eagles to resolve the challenge of Sauron!

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#66

Post by jblz »

Zarathust wrote: post #53

Flying mounts are a plot failure almost every time they are brought up in fantastic stories. Most fantastic stories revolve around a perilous journey through harsh environments and monster lairs. This happens in a good number of movies such as Clash of the Titans where they journey to get the medusa's head, but return on flying pegasus. This also happens in Dungeons & Dragons (2000). Morale : Do not add flying mounts…

See also: The NeverEnding Story

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#67

Post by orourkek »

zeteo wrote: post #49
orourkek wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but the author's note about the Council of Elrond is extremely convincing. If Tolkien wanted to strike this plan as a possibility, he could easily have added 1-2 lines into the Council talks where they discuss (and refute) every plan they can think of. In the end there's nothing concrete in Tolkien's work that refutes the 'eagle plan' as viable. Suggesting fan-fiction and/or 'the unknown' as proof that it's…

I would venture that there were many possible alternate decisions at various points in the plot, and discussing all of them thoroughly was not necessarily a literary enhancement. The "eagles plan" itself is fan fiction, and refusing to accept more "fan fiction" in response to it is a bit disingenuous.

It's more of a plot hole than fan-fiction. The article is an exhaustive look at provable (written) arguments that can refute the eagles as a possibile solution to the Mordor trip. The author is trying to prove that the plot hole is, in fact, a plot hole by nature of it being plausible.

Using other possibilities to refute a possibility goes against the spirit of the article, where the author looks for concrete facts that would render the plan implausible.

In the end, there's nothing I know of (or that the author could find) written in the books that disproves it as a possibility. It simply isn't addressed directly in the text, even where there was a prime opportunity to strike it down (Council of Elrond).

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#68

Post by xefer »

It reminds me a bit of one of the fundamental strategy flaws inherent in the old SPI "War of the Rings" game from 1977:

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2228/war-of-the-ring

Basically the issue was that the person playing as Sauron's forces only had to entrench around Mt. Doom instead of wasting time going out and trying to locate the ring-bearer. The only way for the ring-bearer team to win, was to get to Mt. Doom, so Sauron knew where he was eventually going to be. It didn't matter were he happened to be at any one time.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#69

Post by [deleted] »

danso wrote: post #4

I wonder how much of the thematic blindspot had to do with the technology of the day? The books were reportedly started on soon after The Hobbit (1939ish), before flight was the dominant theater for war. Even though the books were not published until after WW2, when aerial warfare became the new front of war, it seems that Tolkien's main experience in war was the hideous ground fighting in WWI, and he himself rebuffe…

[deleted]

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#70

Post by Shish2k »

jblz wrote: post #66
Zarathust wrote: post #53

Flying mounts are a plot failure almost every time they are brought up in fantastic stories. Most fantastic stories revolve around a perilous journey through harsh environments and monster lairs. This happens in a good number of movies such as Clash of the Titans where they journey to get the medusa's head, but return on flying pegasus. This also happens in Dungeons & Dragons (2000). Morale : Do not add flying mounts…

See also: The NeverEnding Story

Heck, that one has a hole in the title, let alone the plot :P
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