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RIP, MBA - The economic crisis has exposed the myth of business-school expertise

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Re: RIP, MBA - The economic crisis has exposed the myth of business-school expertise

#41

Post by Conservationist »

chime wrote: post #9

sigh I just got home from my evening MBA class after a full day of work. I'm the Director of IT at a pharmaceutical manufacturer in Florida and graduated with 4.0 in CS and Econ with Math minor as my undergrad. After my MBA, I'm hoping to pursue a CS/Math PhD degree and I consider myself a lifelong student with no desire to make millions. I mentioned all of this because I want to make it clear that my reasons to defe…

The Crowd hates anyone who might rise above, starting with MBAs, and it's easier to blame them than the horde of dumb customers who happily buy inferior products at inflated prices.

Re: RIP, MBA - The economic crisis has exposed the myth of business-school expertise

#42

Post by plinkplonk »

carbon8 wrote: post #35
plinkplonk wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"An MBA from a good university is HARD and enlightening work." Could you elucidate what is "HARD" ? I am NOT being sarcastic. I am genuinely curious, but I've found MBA coursework , (except in advanced finance) to be relatively easy compared to, say, a compilers class. Running a real marketing campaign could be hard (depending on the context) but what is hard about the MBA course work in marketing? Could you give cou…

Well, first of all, what's hard for one person can be easy for the next. Plus, people have a lot of misconceptions about many business related fields. Take marketing, for example. It is often misinterpreted as purely "promotion" when really it also encompasses product development, pricing and placement. For me, product development and placement come naturally while I find branding to be tremendously difficult, certai…

"first of all, what's hard for one person can be easy for the next. "

no doubt but the question was explicitly what part of the coursework was hard, not the actual practice of business, which we all acknowledge is very hard.

"Also, whether a person finds something "hard" or not doesn't directly relate to its value. I wouldn't find it "hard" to spend hours reading case studies, but they are tremendously valuable since you can learn from other companies' successes and failures and apply them to your own company."

I didn't claim any of that. The question was solely about a statement in the original post and asking for examples in order to understand the point made, because in my experience MBA coursework is an order of magnitude easier than a masters in say Physics. My experience is not necessarily universal of course.

I don't believe an MBA is useless, but I am not so sure what quantum of value it does have. Hence the question.

Re: RIP, MBA - The economic crisis has exposed the myth of business-school expertise

#43

Post by plinkplonk »

lanceweatherby wrote: post #38
plinkplonk wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"An MBA from a good university is HARD and enlightening work." Could you elucidate what is "HARD" ? I am NOT being sarcastic. I am genuinely curious, but I've found MBA coursework , (except in advanced finance) to be relatively easy compared to, say, a compilers class. Running a real marketing campaign could be hard (depending on the context) but what is hard about the MBA course work in marketing? Could you give cou…

Here is a real example. Pretend like you are in a finance class. It's a case study. On Microsoft buying Yahoo! Determine how much Microsoft should be willing to pay for Yahoo! and the assumptions and rationale behind your conclusion. Or how much is AOL worth as a spinout of Time Warner. The core of the answer lies in something called the Capital Asset Pricing Model and it is as every bit as complex as the fixed point…

"The core of the answer lies in something called the Capital Asset Pricing Model and it is as every bit as complex as the fixed point combinator for which YC was named."

Well I don't think the y combinator is a particularly complex concept and I did accept finance as hard and explicitly asked for non finance examples, :-) but that said I see your point (upvoted!).

"doing real market research for a natural foods store to determine if they should expand their footprint to other locations or just increase the size of their current store. It took over a month to design the questionnaire before the prof deemed it acceptable."

If I understand this correctly, the coursework is hard to the degree it intersects running a real business (in this case, as you said, doing " real market research for a natural foods store".

"With that said, the real challenge, and what any top school does, is teach students how to prioritize."

yes, but this is hardly unique to an MBA :-)

Re: RIP, MBA - The economic crisis has exposed the myth of business-school expertise

#44

Post by ssharp »

carbon8 wrote: post #35
plinkplonk wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"An MBA from a good university is HARD and enlightening work." Could you elucidate what is "HARD" ? I am NOT being sarcastic. I am genuinely curious, but I've found MBA coursework , (except in advanced finance) to be relatively easy compared to, say, a compilers class. Running a real marketing campaign could be hard (depending on the context) but what is hard about the MBA course work in marketing? Could you give cou…

Well, first of all, what's hard for one person can be easy for the next. Plus, people have a lot of misconceptions about many business related fields. Take marketing, for example. It is often misinterpreted as purely "promotion" when really it also encompasses product development, pricing and placement. For me, product development and placement come naturally while I find branding to be tremendously difficult, certai…

>>> Take marketing, for example. It is often misinterpreted as purely "promotion" when really it also encompasses product development, pricing and placement.

I up-vote on this alone! I actually have an essay about this that I plan on posting one day. Marketing is one of the most misunderstood aspects of business from those not involved in it. I'd guess that 9 out of 10 people think marketing is advertising and promotion.

In reality, as you said, developing a product is marketing. Understanding markets, segments, what the segments value and how to create a competitive product within those boundaries is extremely difficult and really is The the core of what a business is. The marketing strategy lies well beyond promotions and really encompasses the life of the business.

Re: RIP, MBA - The economic crisis has exposed the myth of business-school expertise

#45

Post by lanceweatherby »

plinkplonk wrote: post #43
lanceweatherby wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a real example. Pretend like you are in a finance class. It's a case study. On Microsoft buying Yahoo! Determine how much Microsoft should be willing to pay for Yahoo! and the assumptions and rationale behind your conclusion. Or how much is AOL worth as a spinout of Time Warner. The core of the answer lies in something called the Capital Asset Pricing Model and it is as every bit as complex as the fixed point…

"The core of the answer lies in something called the Capital Asset Pricing Model and it is as every bit as complex as the fixed point combinator for which YC was named." Well I don't think the y combinator is a particularly complex concept and I did accept finance as hard and explicitly asked for non finance examples, :-) but that said I see your point (upvoted!). "doing real market research for a natural foods store…

The challenge is prioritization.

The uniqueness of an MBA is that it teaches how to think strategically about a business.

While I can not articulate exactly 'what' it teaches, I do know that often times in the face of new circumstances and rapidly changing conditions it has enabled me to ask the right questions and create the right framework to make a decision.

What I love about startups is they require this type of thinking. It has helped me tremendously in scaling technology companies.

Re: RIP, MBA - The economic crisis has exposed the myth of business-school expertise

#46

Post by gamache »

unalone wrote: post #39
davidw wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points, but: > The Internet's less than 20 The web is less than 20, the internet is significantly older, having been put together in the late 1960ies and early 1970ies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet#History

Yep! Sorry, I was too lazy to write out "world wide web." And technically, with UseNET included the web is closer to 30 than to 20.

And with the bicycle included, the car is about 170 years old. Technically.

Re: RIP, MBA - The economic crisis has exposed the myth of business-school expertise

#47

Post by plinkplonk »

lanceweatherby wrote: post #45
plinkplonk wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The core of the answer lies in something called the Capital Asset Pricing Model and it is as every bit as complex as the fixed point combinator for which YC was named." Well I don't think the y combinator is a particularly complex concept and I did accept finance as hard and explicitly asked for non finance examples, :-) but that said I see your point (upvoted!). "doing real market research for a natural foods store…

The challenge is prioritization. The uniqueness of an MBA is that it teaches how to think strategically about a business. While I can not articulate exactly 'what' it teaches, I do know that often times in the face of new circumstances and rapidly changing conditions it has enabled me to ask the right questions and create the right framework to make a decision. What I love about startups is they require this type of…

"I do know that often times in the face of new circumstances and rapidly changing conditions it has enabled me to ask the right questions and create the right framework to make a decision."

If you acquired this by doing an MBA this is certainly a definite value add :-).

Re: RIP, MBA - The economic crisis has exposed the myth of business-school expertise

#48

Post by biohacker42 »

chime wrote: post #9

sigh I just got home from my evening MBA class after a full day of work. I'm the Director of IT at a pharmaceutical manufacturer in Florida and graduated with 4.0 in CS and Econ with Math minor as my undergrad. After my MBA, I'm hoping to pursue a CS/Math PhD degree and I consider myself a lifelong student with no desire to make millions. I mentioned all of this because I want to make it clear that my reasons to defe…

I agree with everything you wrote, but I'd like to emphasize a minor point.

MBAs, Lawyers, etc, all have a bad image because, as you point out, they are chiefly a community of - make big bucks/whatever is legal is ethical - people.

And while it is unquestionable that a lot of people do NOT belong to that group, a majority do.

Therefore the public's perception is accurate.

Sad, especially unfortunate for the good lawyers and MBAs, but true.

Re: RIP, MBA - The economic crisis has exposed the myth of business-school expertise

#49

Post by carbon8 »

plinkplonk wrote: post #42
carbon8 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, first of all, what's hard for one person can be easy for the next. Plus, people have a lot of misconceptions about many business related fields. Take marketing, for example. It is often misinterpreted as purely "promotion" when really it also encompasses product development, pricing and placement. For me, product development and placement come naturally while I find branding to be tremendously difficult, certai…

"first of all, what's hard for one person can be easy for the next. " no doubt but the question was explicitly what part of the coursework was hard, not the actual practice of business, which we all acknowledge is very hard. "Also, whether a person finds something "hard" or not doesn't directly relate to its value. I wouldn't find it "hard" to spend hours reading case studies, but they are tremendously valuable since…

what part of the coursework was hard, not the actual practice of business

An MBA is practicing business, at least at the top tier schools (possibly at the others, I don't know). Most of the focus is on case studies and group projects tackling real business issues, usually from real businesses, sometimes simulating what you would do and sometimes actually dealing with the actual company. Group projects in part time programs are frequently based on things actually occurring at a business one of the group members works at or runs, while in full time programs students will work with companies on existing issues. Traditional coursework is more commonly found in the the strictly analytical finance and economics classes.

Re: RIP, MBA - The economic crisis has exposed the myth of business-school expertise

#50

Post by plinkplonk »

carbon8 wrote: post #49
plinkplonk wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"first of all, what's hard for one person can be easy for the next. " no doubt but the question was explicitly what part of the coursework was hard, not the actual practice of business, which we all acknowledge is very hard. "Also, whether a person finds something "hard" or not doesn't directly relate to its value. I wouldn't find it "hard" to spend hours reading case studies, but they are tremendously valuable since…

what part of the coursework was hard, not the actual practice of business An MBA is practicing business, at least at the top tier schools (possibly at the others, I don't know). Most of the focus is on case studies and group projects tackling real business issues, usually from real businesses, sometimes simulating what you would do and sometimes actually dealing with the actual company. Group projects in part time pr…

"An MBA is practicing business,"

This is the first time I've ever heard an mba as practice (vs a study of theory) in running a business. Great insight (if true).

"Most of the focus is on case studies"

A case study is not quite practice, more like a review I'd think. If this concept is adopted , analysing Napoleon's campaigns would be "practicing war" , reading about Bruce Lee's fighting style(and even debating about it) would be "practicing KUng Fu" and an analysis of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony would be "practicing music".

" and group projects tackling real business issues,"

This is more like it. What percentage of an MBA do you think would involve running (parts of) a real business? 25 %, 50 %?

"This past quarter, for instance, her group in one class did all the business planning for a group member's business that he is now creating."

Well, this will become a "real business" when it is actually running? I mean, till it runs this planning is as good as anyone else's?

"In other cases, they've done restructuring plans that are then implemented by the company. "

This is more in line with "practicing business". Thanks for the input. Thought provoking.

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