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Bitcoin rises from $14 to $40 in two months

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Re: Bitcoin rises from $14 to $40 in two months

#41

I'm confused how a bitcoin bug fix or protocol fix would get implemented? Isn't it a distributed system, so everyone mining coins would have to agree at once?

It requires more than 50% of the network to agree.

Those who don't will live in their own little fork.

Re: Bitcoin rises from $14 to $40 in two months

#42
post #20
post #10

I expect a correction soon, as It happened last year. I wouldnt invest now any dollar.

I would expect the same, but I'm not in any way an economist so I'll wait and see. I also think that after the correction the price will rise again anyway.

I wonder if people are worried about the US austerity measures?

--am an economist, and am curious as you to see what will happen

Re: Bitcoin rises from $14 to $40 in two months

#43
http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.dk/2011/04/on-monet...

Finally, we examine a new contender - the mysterious and awesome Bitcoin.

I'll be frank with you, dear reader. When I came up with the MoMT, my first thought was: how can I, Mencius Moldbug, make some damned money from this? As system software is my first love, it was not that hard to think of an answer. In some ways Bitcoin is actually much better designed than my design, which was not distributed. The use of Lamport hash chaining is particularly elegant. I did not wind up building my design, however, because I sensed a problem. Bitcoin has the same problem, but worse.

But the basic economic design is the same: an artificial currency of limited supply. What is the currency backed by? Nothing but speculation and hot air. Note that this (contrary to its exponents' claims) violates Mises' classical "regression theorem." MoMT has no problem with an unbacked monetary candidate, because the required epsilon can be provided simply by the probability that the monetary system is adopted.

If Bitcoin becomes the new global monetary system, one bitcoin purchased today (for 90 cents, last time I checked) will make you a very wealthy individual. You are essentially buying Manhattan for a quarter. There are only 21 million bitcoins (including those not yet minted). (In my design, this was a far more elegant 2^64, with quantities in exponential notation. Just sayin'.) Mapped to $100 trillion of global money, to pull a random number out of the air, you become a millionaire. Wow!

So even if the probability of Bitcoin succeeding is epsilon, a million to one, it's still worthwhile for anyone to buy at least a few bitcoins now. The currency thus derives an initial value from this probability, and boots itself into existence from pure worthlessness - becoming a viable repository of savings. If a very strange, dangerous and unstable one.

I think the probability of Bitcoin succeeding is very low. I would not put it at a million to one, though, so I recommend that you go out and buy a few bitcoins if you have the technical chops. My financial advice is to not buy more than ten, which should be F-U money if Bitcoin wins. Or, of course, you can invest in those alpaca socks.

Here is the problem with Bitcoin: the tank, I think, will pop. This is not due to any technical fault in Bitcoin's algorithms or economics. It is due to a political fault in our society, which is that we're governed by dumb people.

Because we're governed by dumb people, here is what I think will happen with Bitcoin. Stage 1: Bitcoin does not exist. Stage 2: Bitcoin exists, but is worthless. Stage 3: Bitcoin exists, and is used by strange and desperate weirdos and geeks. Stage 4: Bitcoin is used by Slashdot readers, perhaps slightly less desperate. (You are here.) Stage 5: Bitcoin is used by criminals. Stage 6: All Bitcoin exchanges are shut down by USG. Stage 7: Bitcoin exists, but is worthless. Stage 8: Bitcoin does not exist.

At least on the surface, Bitcoin exchanges violate the critical know-your-customer rule which USG enforces on all money-transfer businesses. As a money-transfer business, you are essentially an agent of the government - a spy. To a regulator, Bitcoin seems like a way to transfer arbitrary quantities of money anonymously. This is a nonstarter, and the regulator knows exactly whose necks he has to squeeze - the spies who are not doing their jobs.

He cannot shut down Bitcoin itself. He can trivially shut down Bitcoin-dollar exchanges, or even Bitcoin-gold exchanges. Probably seizing all their dollars, etc. He probably can't seize their bitcoins, but it doesn't really matter.

To save in a currency is to place your trust in that currency. If you put energy into this great collective battery, you have to be able to get it back out. If that trust can be convincingly damaged, the currency has no chance. If people lose money in bitcoins, the currency can never recover. No one will ever again exchange it for dollars, or even alpaca socks. It will be dead. Its chances, now and forever, will be zero - not even epsilon.

If Bitcoin was centralized - sacrificing all real coolness - it could deal with this problem, perhaps, by applying KYC to all dollar transactions. But Bitcoin is not centralized, so there is no way the development team can prevent exchanges from operating. These exchanges are obvious targets for numerous predatory authorities. When they are destroyed, the currency dies.

What is Bitcoin's only chance? Perhaps that Bitcoin is not really anonymous. In fact, it is anything but. All transactions, though pseudonymous (named by a random key), are public and can be tracked by anyone, including said authorities. There is no financial secrecy in Bitcoin - it's a completely transparent system.

Which means that, if money launderers try to launder money through Bitcoin, they are actually doing the authorities a massive favor. It is very easy to track dirty bitcoins. If you know Pablo, a drug dealer, is using Bitcoin address X, you can download the entire graph of parties that X trades with, and roll up Pablo's whole network. Instead of shutting down the real-money exchanges, you can secretly force them to send you their entire customer database. That way, the terrorists, drug dealers, etc, are not hiding their transactions at all - they are sharing their most intimate details with the government. Heck, the DEA probably understands Pablo's finances better than Pablo's own people. That's what he gets for using Bitcoin.

But, as I said, we are governed by dumb people. Or, worse, committees of smart people. Therefore, I reiterate my target price on bitcoins: epsilon. Nonetheless, it probably wouldn't kill you to go buy five or ten - not that this is financial advice.

Re: Bitcoin rises from $14 to $40 in two months

#44
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People will want to have it as an asset, not as a usable currency. Appreciating currencies are disastrous for any economy stuck with them, which is why we're no longer on the gold standard.

We are no longer on the gold standard because the gold was confiscated under threat of 10 years in prison. Please explain how holding a piece of metal under mattress destroys someone else's wealth, so you can come to a person and extract gold by force. http://2012patriot.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/executive_ord...

> Please explain how holding a piece of metal under mattress destroys someone else's wealth

Inflation creates a strong incentive to allocate capital to productive investments.

Inflation decreases the value of a currency, and therefore people attempt to allocate capital to investments that appreciate above the rate of inflation.

Without inflation there would be less incentive to fund new companies, lend money etc...

Gold under a mattress is not productive capital.

This leads to a virtuous cycle of investment and reinvestment. Deflation is a far bigger threat than moderate, controlled inflation.

Think of the economy as a MMORPG. The game's creators (central banks) need tools to balance gameplay and keep the game (the economy) growing and interesting.

The value of fiat currency is very real. It is backed by the ultimate power on earth, the state's monopoly on violence.

Re: Bitcoin rises from $14 to $40 in two months

#46
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are no longer on the gold standard because the gold was confiscated under threat of 10 years in prison. Please explain how holding a piece of metal under mattress destroys someone else's wealth, so you can come to a person and extract gold by force. http://2012patriot.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/executive_ord...

We're no longer on the gold standard because it lead to hoarding and economic inflexibility. It doesn't destroy wealth, however when gold is your currency and people hoard gold (for any reason be it economic instability or as an investment in the future price increases) the economy loses that amount of circulating money and moving money is what makes an economy work, not stagnant saved money. So by signing that execu…

Keeping the fruit of your labor should be called saving, not hoarding.

Re: Bitcoin rises from $14 to $40 in two months

#47
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are no longer on the gold standard because the gold was confiscated under threat of 10 years in prison. Please explain how holding a piece of metal under mattress destroys someone else's wealth, so you can come to a person and extract gold by force. http://2012patriot.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/executive_ord...

We're no longer on the gold standard because it lead to hoarding and economic inflexibility. It doesn't destroy wealth, however when gold is your currency and people hoard gold (for any reason be it economic instability or as an investment in the future price increases) the economy loses that amount of circulating money and moving money is what makes an economy work, not stagnant saved money. So by signing that execu…

Yes all monetary value is ephemeral, intangible and based on the belief and good will of the market

That's an overly simplistic view of the value of money. If the value of money were only based on belief, then one would except sudden collapses of monetary value without any connection to the real economy quite regularly. In a sense, money would be like the cartoon character who defies gravity until he looks down.

In reality, the value of money is based on people's demand for money. This demand is largely circular (the store wants money in exchange for goods because that's what the suppliers demand, and the suppliers demand money because that's what their employees demand, who demand it because that's what the stores want, and so on).

However, there are two decidedly non-circular sources of the demand for money. One of these sources is taxation: If the government decides that you have to pay your taxes in currency X, then there will always be demand for that currency. Even if your employer pays you in Bitcoin, you will still have to pay your income tax in whatever the local fiat currency happens to be.

The other source is debt payment: If you are in debt, you have to make certain payments (under threat of losing your house etc.).

These two belief-free sources of demand for fiat currency are the "base case of induction" for why fiat currency has value. They ensure that the viability of fiat currency does not depend on belief.

Re: Bitcoin rises from $14 to $40 in two months

#48
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are no longer on the gold standard because the gold was confiscated under threat of 10 years in prison. Please explain how holding a piece of metal under mattress destroys someone else's wealth, so you can come to a person and extract gold by force. http://2012patriot.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/executive_ord...

We're no longer on the gold standard because it lead to hoarding and economic inflexibility. It doesn't destroy wealth, however when gold is your currency and people hoard gold (for any reason be it economic instability or as an investment in the future price increases) the economy loses that amount of circulating money and moving money is what makes an economy work, not stagnant saved money. So by signing that execu…

Do you say, if some people think you and your friends cannot play with certain non-harmful objects (e.g. gold bricks), it is morally alright to force you to go to prison or kill you if you try to protect yourself?

Re: Bitcoin rises from $14 to $40 in two months

#49
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are no longer on the gold standard because the gold was confiscated under threat of 10 years in prison. Please explain how holding a piece of metal under mattress destroys someone else's wealth, so you can come to a person and extract gold by force. http://2012patriot.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/executive_ord...

When you have a growing economy but a fixed money supply, money will appreciate. When this happens, people will prefer to keep money rather than spend it, and you get deflation-induced recessions/depressions. See the latter part of the 19th century in the US for repeated examples of this.

Exactly, and I'd like to point out that you having to explain this goes to show we aren't teaching economics properly (or at all) in school. The school systems focus on make sure our children are well rounded in every way except financially.

Re: Bitcoin rises from $14 to $40 in two months

#50
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're no longer on the gold standard because it lead to hoarding and economic inflexibility. It doesn't destroy wealth, however when gold is your currency and people hoard gold (for any reason be it economic instability or as an investment in the future price increases) the economy loses that amount of circulating money and moving money is what makes an economy work, not stagnant saved money. So by signing that execu…

Keeping the fruit of your labor should be called saving, not hoarding.

Not when it's also the medium of exchange, and not when its got a fixed supply.
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