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Teach kids to farm, not code.

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Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#161

Post by randomdata »

icebraining wrote: post #140
randomdata wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been involved in farming for most of my life and now, as an adult, have my own operation. I also program professionally. With considerable experience in both, I still think farming is the more challenging of the two and believe that farming does require more problem solving over a wide range of disciplines. When the whole learn to code push came to my attention, I also wondered if farming would be a better optio…

farming does require more problem solving over a wide range of disciplines Does it make sense to compare the two that way? Farming is a an activity that has problems to be solved, programming is a method of solving problems - including farming related ones. Sure, farming has more and more diverse problems to be solved compared to pure programming problems (i.e., CS), but almost every programmer solves problems in oth…

That is a great question. I guess it depends if the purpose is to learn how to solve problems, or how to use a tool that can solve a certain class of problems.

If it is the latter, I do wonder why single out coding? Coming with a programmer bias, I often feel like I could do a lot more useful automations in my life if I had more electronic and mechanical skills. There are many disciplines that seem just as useful that students would gain a lot from being exposed to, not just coding.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#162

Post by SatvikBeri »

edw519 wrote: post #78

I don't think we should encourage anyone to do anything. We should discourage them. Let me explain... I take my example from this traditional practice of Rabbis: never accept a convert until they have been turned away twice before. Make them make 3 attempts to show their determination. Why? Because Judaism is hard. If they're not committed, they'll either give up or do just enough to satisify the minimum requirements…

You're underestimating the value of basic coding skills to non-programmers. It's a little like saying programmers should never learn how to improve their social skills, because they'll never be have the determination to reach Bill Clinton's level of charisma.

I am decidedly not a programmer. I don't know what an object is. I haven't learned the first bit of CS. My code would probably make you want to gouge your eyes out. And yet, it's saved/earned companies millions of dollars.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#163

Post by XorNot »

meaty wrote: post #131
tartley wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of civilisations have collapsed throughout all of history. Millions of people have starved to death as a result. What makes you think we're somehow immune?

Sheer arrogance makes these people think they are immune. Plenty of people are starving today even probably less than a mile away from anyone eating well. The system does not serve everyone equally and ultimately we may all suffer one day.

People starving today aren't doing so because there's not enough food nor because people don't know how to grow it.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#164

Post by dasil003 »

coldtea wrote: post #146
dasil003 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all been pretty boring since the harnessing of fire.

Certainly. For example conversation without BS snide remarks seems to be a lost art.

The last clause of your response doesn't make sense so maybe you're not responding to me, but just in case you were serious:

Snide yes, but BS no. The industrial revolution did nothing to the quality of life compared to cooking food and scaring wild animals away. The point is that it takes more and more work to make meaningful progress. The low fruit has been picked. Minimizing the impact of computation is what is BS since there is almost no aspect of life and the economy that hasn't been greatly impacted by it.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#165

Post by flaviusb »

edw519 wrote: post #78

I don't think we should encourage anyone to do anything. We should discourage them. Let me explain... I take my example from this traditional practice of Rabbis: never accept a convert until they have been turned away twice before. Make them make 3 attempts to show their determination. Why? Because Judaism is hard. If they're not committed, they'll either give up or do just enough to satisify the minimum requirements…

Or, we could do things that encourage this burning desire, perhaps?

It certainly seems possible to teach in a way that kindles a life long love of programming, rather than leaving things to blind caprice - most groups just don't even seem to realise this might be a good idea.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#166

Post by meaty »

XorNot wrote: post #163
meaty wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sheer arrogance makes these people think they are immune. Plenty of people are starving today even probably less than a mile away from anyone eating well. The system does not serve everyone equally and ultimately we may all suffer one day.

People starving today aren't doing so because there's not enough food nor because people don't know how to grow it.

Today, yes. Tomorrow?

We're 3 days from no food at any time.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#167

Post by icebraining »

randomdata wrote: post #161
icebraining wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

farming does require more problem solving over a wide range of disciplines Does it make sense to compare the two that way? Farming is a an activity that has problems to be solved, programming is a method of solving problems - including farming related ones. Sure, farming has more and more diverse problems to be solved compared to pure programming problems (i.e., CS), but almost every programmer solves problems in oth…

That is a great question. I guess it depends if the purpose is to learn how to solve problems, or how to use a tool that can solve a certain class of problems. If it is the latter, I do wonder why single out coding? Coming with a programmer bias, I often feel like I could do a lot more useful automations in my life if I had more electronic and mechanical skills. There are many disciplines that seem just as useful tha…

Sure, but we're programmers, so we advocate coding! That doesn't detract from EEs advocating for electronic skills or farmers advocating for agriculture skills. We don't all need to push everything.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#168

Post by Turing_Machine »

wazoox wrote: post #154
Turing_Machine wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"particularly the sheer disregard of energy related problems" Did you actually read this? We have enough fissile material to last billions of years. "Billions". With a B. http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/nuclear-faq.html

Yes, I've read this several years ago, but you didn't read my links. Because my link use actual arithmetic, while McCarthy only says that those who don't use arithmetic are condemned to fail, then happily proceed with vague numbers and absolutely ZERO actual data.

"Because my link use actual arithmetic"

No, they don't.

They use the assumption that population and energy use per capita will continue to grow exponentially, when it's clear that it doesn't. That may be "arithmetic" of a sort, but GIGO, you know.

Essentially every developed country is below replacement level (the United States is an exception, but only due to high immigration).

Find out why that is and then you can discuss the issue without, as McCarthy said, talking nonsense.

I did use actual arithmetic in the waste heat calculation, which I notice that you did not dispute.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#169

Post by russelluresti »

I think they're missing the point of the "learn to code" message. It's not to become extremely wealthy or have a higher status in life. Sure, having computer skills and finding a job is a nice benefit of learning to code, but the idea of learning to code comes from the fact that so much of the world now is built around code. Sites, communities, apps, etc are all built on code. Knowing how to code gives the ability to create and participate in the world.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#170

Post by dschiptsov »

contingencies wrote: post #134
dschiptsov wrote: post #22

Yeah, coding (especially bad coding) is easy, and requires almost no knowledge, whereas programming is a completely different discipline, which requires a lot (really a lot) of knowledge, especially programming of systems. Programming begins with understanding of how computers work, what is an architecture, an instruction set, size of registers, etc. Look at that MIT Scheme source. They have macroses - 32bit word - w…

Congratulations! You have turned a discussion of the relative merits of learning a critical and historic human discipline in to a rant against virtual machines (illogical, I might add: they are great tools for managing complexity) and the structure of programming organizations.

Didn't mean it. The statement that farming requires much more knowledge than coding triggered all this.)
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