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Teach kids to farm, not code.

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Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#41

Post by ivanmilles »

raverbashing wrote: post #6

Yes, farming is hard, very hard Most here don't appreciate how hard it is (especially if you're inexperienced) Do people still grow beans using a cotton in a cup? Do they still teach that at schools? That's basically the 'hello world' of farming Of course, depends on what you are doing, type of plants, inside a greenhouse or in an open field, the scale of it etc. Not to mention raising animals. That's very hard as we…

>That's basically the 'hello world' of farming This is an extremely fascinating perspective. I need to go... build something. Wow.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#42

Post by ivanmilles »

gambiting wrote: post #26
Turing_Machine wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? " Because most of them have no idea just how grim the life of a subsistence peasant farmer really is, and how that differs from the lucky few who get to sell boutique "organic" produce to rich people.

"Because most of them have no idea just how grim the life of a subsistence peasant farmer is" You could say the same about oil rig workers or coal miners and they are going to use both coal and oil when they grow up. Should we teach kids how to do these professions too? Where should we stop? There's many "grim" professions, things that need to be done in life, yet school kids are usually shown none of them. So what?

Agricultural produce is a strongly limiting factor on how good human life can be - the most important process we run. To give kids a rudimentary insight into the mechanics and economy of it is - to me - clearly a more important lesson than understanding an oil rig.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#43

Post by bnegreve »

singular wrote: post #7

"This thing #{X} that I am inexperienced at is much harder than this thing #{Y} I spent years doing because I am experienced at #{Y} and have some idea how to do it and thus it feels comfortable. Why, I am going to go so far as to talk down everybody who still does #{Y}, partly because I'm somewhat burnt out on it, and partly because my comparative experience makes me feel like it's easy compared to #{X}." Where:- *…

Programmers' world is populated with very abstract concepts that they use to reason and draw conclusions. I think this post discuss the applicability of this reasoning outside of the virtual sphere.

So assigning farming to #{X}, programming to #{Y} and then reasoning over X and Y without considering the reality of farming and programming is surely not the proper way to address this problem.

In other words, I disagree and I think this post is interesting.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#45

Post by gambiting »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #38
gambiting wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Because most of them have no idea just how grim the life of a subsistence peasant farmer is" You could say the same about oil rig workers or coal miners and they are going to use both coal and oil when they grow up. Should we teach kids how to do these professions too? Where should we stop? There's many "grim" professions, things that need to be done in life, yet school kids are usually shown none of them. So what?

I think you're misunderstanding me. I don't think people should have to be subsistence peasant farmers.

They don't. As I mentioned earlier - high-yield industry scale farming might be evil, dishonest or capitalistic. Doesn't matter - it is what allowed us to not be farmers. Few hundred hears ago you had to be a farmer to survive - today you don't have to, because there is enough food for everyone on the market. IF you can find another job, that is. But if you find a different thing to do, then you don't have to be a farmer, you will be able to buy food.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#46

Post by empoman »

cpressey wrote: post #35
empoman wrote: post #13

I think what most people are missing is that it's not about creating more programmers as much as it is about teaching people how to think analytically. When you're programming you try to solve a high level problem using low level techniques. The actual programming is the part where you find a solution for the high level problem with your low level tools. So again, it is not just about writing code. It is about how to…

I agree with your point. But to riff off dschiptsov's comment, how do you define "programming" (as opposed to, say, "coding"), and how does knowing programming help you answer questions like "How can I speed up harvesting on my farm?" I would call the ability to understand and solve those kinds of problems analysis , not programming. It used to be the case that "systems analyst" and "programmer" were two different jo…

That's a fair question, so I'll try to explain how I see it. Problem analysis as you mentioning it, to me, seems like the theoretical form of programming. So here I see "coding", or programming, as an easy way to practice problem analysis in a real context, and not just by going through a text book like we do with math in school.

And I agree with you regarding programmers and system analysts. There are so many titles and job descriptions nowadays that try to look fancier than the other just to make it easier arguing for a higher salary. Even if what they do is basically the same. Here in Sweden, there is a long running "joke"-ish alternative title for a cleaner, and that is "hygiene technician". One sounds fancier than the other, but it really isn't.

Regarding how speeding up the harvesting would be done, I have no idea since I am not at all familiar with how a farm works. The point I was trying to make is that if you have knowledge about the domain of farming, AND you know how to program (or if you are good at problem analysis, which I think you are if you can program), then I'm sure that it would be easier to think of something than if you weren't.

Does it make sense or am I just rambling like a crazy person? :D

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#47

Post by patrickaljord »

coldtea wrote: post #33
singular wrote: post #7

"This thing #{X} that I am inexperienced at is much harder than this thing #{Y} I spent years doing because I am experienced at #{Y} and have some idea how to do it and thus it feels comfortable. Why, I am going to go so far as to talk down everybody who still does #{Y}, partly because I'm somewhat burnt out on it, and partly because my comparative experience makes me feel like it's easy compared to #{X}." Where:- *…

X indeed revolutionised the world. Y just made porn delivery and commerce better. It's not even clear at this point if it had any effect (besides negative) to the global intellectual climate.

Ok, this is a real low for HN. Are you actually saying that the only thing computing has done for the world is better porn delivery and better commerce? Wow. Do you have any idea how we managed to decode our genome so fast? Any idea that every science labs including maths have computers to test their hypothesis and solve their equations at such a huge scale and speed no human being could possibly dream to match? How about communication? How about almost anything you use today to make your life easier has a computer chip in it? How about making the bulk of human knowledge available to anyone with an internet connection even in remote poor areas of the world where adults can barely read such as Peru where I lived for years? I could go on but I think you get the idea.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#48

Post by nohuck13 »

> The programming part is nothing more than a hammer to a builder or a scalpel to a surgeon.

We need to remember that not all "tools" are equal. "Tools" like math, science, and philosophy provide leverage for future understanding/interacting with the world. The "tool" of farming provides the ability grow food efficiently. Important but not the same thing. The idea behind code.org and the like is that, hey, maybe programming is more foundational than it is just a trade for programmers to sit in cubicles and do all day.

If you want to argue that programming and farming belong on the same plane, you need to argue that farming provides as much leverage as coding for general life tasks, or else why this leverage doesn't matter. Implying that programming is somehow a morally corrupt activity because of its "escapism" and links to advertising and high frequency trading feels a bit inadequate to me.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#49

Post by jacquesm »

aethertap wrote: post #36
gambiting wrote: post #11

I don't understand. We've spent thousands of years, using 99.9% of able-bodied people for farming, hunting or some other food-gathering activities. Only selected few could afford to NOT work in farming. Even America, just 200 years ago had 90% of its population working as farmers. Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? Sure, the food industry is not always honest,not always as good as…

I run a small farm, and I've been a professional programmer for about 12 years. I agree with what you say - kids should definitely have the opportunity to learn both. Of my two pursuits above, farming is much newer to me and I've found an amazing amount of skill transfer from the world of programming to the world of farming. Granted, my sheep don't understand when I yell at them in haskell, but the approaches to prob…

> Granted, my sheep don't understand when I yell at them in haskell

From my own experience, try Assembly or Ook, they're both more geared towards mammals. Haskell is for communicating with machinery, that's your mistake right there ;)

On another note, what I found when working land is that time flies by, you can zone out just as easily ploughing a chunk of land as you can while writing code. And it's inspiring. Another thing that it shows you is how much wildlife there is on an otherwise visually empty piece of land.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#50

Post by gambiting »

coldtea wrote: post #34
gambiting wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Sociology, Philosophy and Literature are better alternatives." Yes,but not for kids. You won't teach any of these subjects to kids, even if they are better for logical thinking. But if you show them an interesting way to start programming,they will see a very clear connection between what is being said and what happens = logic. Then it can be extended later in life, but this article specifically targets kids. And I…

> Yes,but not for kids. You won't teach any of these subjects to kids Really? Why? We have been doing it for millenia.

No. We make kids at school read countless books, and trying to convey to them the meaning that's inside these books. Most kids don't care though, because I really don't think that you can read some of mature works at the age of 14 and understand the deep philosophical context inside them, even if your teacher serves it to you on a silver plate. It's not to say that kids are stupid - far from it. My point is, that literally throwing literature and philosophical dilemmas at kids it not going to achieve much. Sure, we've been doing it for millenia - but it does not automatically make it right.
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