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Teach kids to farm, not code.

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Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#31

Post by sounds »

Every once in a while I still recite this one poem shared with me back when I was quite impressionable; it's a fascinating comparison between farming and coding.

For the record, I agree that our interaction with this biosphere (and hopefully, Mars soon) vastly outweighs the significance of github. No offense intended to github, just perspective.

Part of it:

  Writing turns our deepest loam
  Planting roses with the words
  From indigenous tangle
  Visitors, though, not landlords

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#32

Post by adestefan »

rorrr wrote: post #28
fsniper wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe computer programing is a good way to teach logical thinking. Sociology, Philosophy and Literature are better alternatives. Coding only makes you better micro managers, "thinking of efficient ways to make idiots do things you like". Also teaching agriculture or other physical goods producing craftsmanship to kids would make them better at real world challenges. Modern society seems to be run by digital…

> I don't believe computer programing is a good way to teach logical thinking. Sociology, Philosophy and Literature are better alternatives That makes no sense. I've taken literature, I've read hundreds of books on my own. Most of them are full of illogical things. At best they are OK to teach morals, not logic. Philosophy is closer. Computer programming is pretty much pure logic and problem solving. The only better…

I'm not sure why people think programming us the pinnacle of problem solving. Just about any trade involves just as much logical thinking and problem solving.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#33

Post by coldtea »

singular wrote: post #7

"This thing #{X} that I am inexperienced at is much harder than this thing #{Y} I spent years doing because I am experienced at #{Y} and have some idea how to do it and thus it feels comfortable. Why, I am going to go so far as to talk down everybody who still does #{Y}, partly because I'm somewhat burnt out on it, and partly because my comparative experience makes me feel like it's easy compared to #{X}." Where:- *…

X indeed revolutionised the world. Y just made porn delivery and commerce better. It's not even clear at this point if it had any effect (besides negative) to the global intellectual climate.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#34

Post by coldtea »

gambiting wrote: post #23
fsniper wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe computer programing is a good way to teach logical thinking. Sociology, Philosophy and Literature are better alternatives. Coding only makes you better micro managers, "thinking of efficient ways to make idiots do things you like". Also teaching agriculture or other physical goods producing craftsmanship to kids would make them better at real world challenges. Modern society seems to be run by digital…

"Sociology, Philosophy and Literature are better alternatives." Yes,but not for kids. You won't teach any of these subjects to kids, even if they are better for logical thinking. But if you show them an interesting way to start programming,they will see a very clear connection between what is being said and what happens = logic. Then it can be extended later in life, but this article specifically targets kids. And I…

>Yes,but not for kids. You won't teach any of these subjects to kids

Really? Why? We have been doing it for millenia.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#35

Post by cpressey »

empoman wrote: post #13

I think what most people are missing is that it's not about creating more programmers as much as it is about teaching people how to think analytically. When you're programming you try to solve a high level problem using low level techniques. The actual programming is the part where you find a solution for the high level problem with your low level tools. So again, it is not just about writing code. It is about how to…

I agree with your point. But to riff off dschiptsov's comment, how do you define "programming" (as opposed to, say, "coding"), and how does knowing programming help you answer questions like "How can I speed up harvesting on my farm?"

I would call the ability to understand and solve those kinds of problems analysis, not programming. It used to be the case that "systems analyst" and "programmer" were two different job titles; at this point, they've largely merged, but I still see them as two different skill sets. (And then there's "software engineer" which is a whole other can of worms.)

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#36

Post by aethertap »

gambiting wrote: post #11

I don't understand. We've spent thousands of years, using 99.9% of able-bodied people for farming, hunting or some other food-gathering activities. Only selected few could afford to NOT work in farming. Even America, just 200 years ago had 90% of its population working as farmers. Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? Sure, the food industry is not always honest,not always as good as…

I run a small farm, and I've been a professional programmer for about 12 years. I agree with what you say - kids should definitely have the opportunity to learn both. Of my two pursuits above, farming is much newer to me and I've found an amazing amount of skill transfer from the world of programming to the world of farming. Granted, my sheep don't understand when I yell at them in haskell, but the approaches to problem solving, whole-system thinking, and consideration of edge cases I think are enormously beneficial in almost any profession.

I do think that today's kids would benefit not only from knowing a thing or two about how to raise some food (very different from actual "farming") and also from having much more contact with the natural world.

I also think that many kids would benefit from learning the "art" side of programming - the stuff that's fun and interesting, like solving puzzles, appreciation of the hard-to-define idea of elegance, reverse engineering, etc. Nothing else I've learned to do has had quite the impact on my ability to consider many angles in a situation and reason a way to get from one state to another, and at least for me it's been a fun process to learn it all.

My real complaint when anybody says "Everybody should have to learn X," is that I think it should be "Everybody should have a chance to learn X." Coding was the best path for me to learn to think about complex, abstract things and apply that thinking to the real world (including farming). For others, it may not be so.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#37

Post by jasonlotito »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #25
adamnemecek wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same with "Why are programmers granted such high status...". I was not aware that programmers had a particularly high social status.

http://www.forbes.com/2006/07/28/leadership-careers-jobs-cx_... Farmer and engineer are about the same, with farmer having a slight edge.

Engineer, not programmer. Judging by the picture, I'm pretty sure they aren't referring to the computer "engineer."

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#38

Post by Turing_Machine »

gambiting wrote: post #26
Turing_Machine wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? " Because most of them have no idea just how grim the life of a subsistence peasant farmer really is, and how that differs from the lucky few who get to sell boutique "organic" produce to rich people.

"Because most of them have no idea just how grim the life of a subsistence peasant farmer is" You could say the same about oil rig workers or coal miners and they are going to use both coal and oil when they grow up. Should we teach kids how to do these professions too? Where should we stop? There's many "grim" professions, things that need to be done in life, yet school kids are usually shown none of them. So what?

I think you're misunderstanding me.

I don't think people should have to be subsistence peasant farmers.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#39

Post by rorrr »

adestefan wrote: post #32
rorrr wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't believe computer programing is a good way to teach logical thinking. Sociology, Philosophy and Literature are better alternatives That makes no sense. I've taken literature, I've read hundreds of books on my own. Most of them are full of illogical things. At best they are OK to teach morals, not logic. Philosophy is closer. Computer programming is pretty much pure logic and problem solving. The only better…

I'm not sure why people think programming us the pinnacle of problem solving. Just about any trade involves just as much logical thinking and problem solving.

Really? Any trade? Car salesmen are sitting and solving logical problems?

Programming is very close to logic.

Of course, there are other fields that require logic and problem solving. Engineering, science, for instance.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#40

Post by StavrosK »

rorrr wrote: post #28
fsniper wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe computer programing is a good way to teach logical thinking. Sociology, Philosophy and Literature are better alternatives. Coding only makes you better micro managers, "thinking of efficient ways to make idiots do things you like". Also teaching agriculture or other physical goods producing craftsmanship to kids would make them better at real world challenges. Modern society seems to be run by digital…

> I don't believe computer programing is a good way to teach logical thinking. Sociology, Philosophy and Literature are better alternatives That makes no sense. I've taken literature, I've read hundreds of books on my own. Most of them are full of illogical things. At best they are OK to teach morals, not logic. Philosophy is closer. Computer programming is pretty much pure logic and problem solving. The only better…

If you want to teach logical thinking, you need to teach biases, rationality, probability, etc. Programming is teaching "if this, then that".
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