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The Fall of Academics at Harvard

thecrimson.com

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Re: The Fall of Academics at Harvard

#21

Post by crgt »

econnors wrote: post #18
hkmurakami wrote: post #11

Disclosure: I graduated from Princeton in 2007 This article (which I skimmed) seems to use Princeton as a counterpoint to Harvard's supposed cheating culture and lax attitude towards academics. I have no idea whether students actually treat academics with more respect than their Crimson counterparts "on average". However , I can definitely say that the kind of collaboration/copying/cheating that is described for Harv…

I am a current student at Dartmouth, and it's the same here as well. Especially in a class with a curve, a student is at a serious disadvantage if he/she doesn't collaborate, copy, or cheat.

Sad to hear as an alum. It wasn't that way a decade ago.

Re: The Fall of Academics at Harvard

#23

Post by rezendi »

Plus ça change. Communal work on weekly/monthly assignments was basically ubiquitous when I went to university mumblemumble years ago. (OK, fine; electrical engineering at the University of Waterloo, graduated 1996.)

It didn't really _feel_ like cheating to anyone, including me, who rarely-if-ever participated, fwiw. (Not due to any moral high ground, but because a) I was not particularly social at the time b) "100% of your grade is based on your final exam score" was usually an option, and (relative to other students) my exams were far better than my assignments.)

Was it? Mmm. Probably yes, in the end, but it seems to me that you could make a reasonable prescriptive/descriptive case that it wasn't.

Was it evidence of a serious moral flaw pervasive throughout that generation, or excessive pressure to excel (Waterloo is basically Canada's MIT), or anything like? Hell no. It was just a grotesque but essentially harmless cultural artifact. With twenty years of hindsight, I'd advise against reading too much into it.

Re: The Fall of Academics at Harvard

#24

Post by shivak »

jechen wrote: post #4

It's no different at Carnegie Mellon. I spoke to a former SCS dean who revealed that cheating rates in CS courses are as high as 70%, yet most professors turn a blind eye (which as the Crimson article points out, may be attributed to apathy or inability to enforce class policy at a large scale). The fact that academic dishonesty is so prevalent these days makes me inclined to believe that cheating is symptomatic of t…

I disagree thoroughly. I've been to both Harvard and CMU, and assisted classes at the latter. CMU SCS undergrads work much harder than Harvard undergrads, and their work is more honest.

Actually, CMU students are perhaps a bit too isolated. This leads to some academic stratification, because the smart kids hang out with one another. There is less support and camaraderie. Lots of promising students struggle at SCS and drop out. The attrition rate, not cheating, is actually the primary academic concern.

Harvard is at the other extreme. The stratification isn't academic, it's social (via finals clubs and such.) Everyone collaborates. There are two common practices I find especially distasteful. Harvard has a very long, class-free study period right before exams. Also, Harvard provides students with Adderall at no cost with essentially no questions asked. A lot of students blow off the assignments then cram with loads of amphetamines. They're smart, so they succeed, but they don't really learn anything.

Re: The Fall of Academics at Harvard

#25

Post by pavpanchekha »

ender7 wrote: post #13
simonsarris wrote: post #3

Of course this is the Harvard Crimson writing about Harvard, but the words in the article could be applicable to damn near any institution, at least in the U.S. > The institution and the community condones, if not promotes, academic dishonesty, emphasizing prestige over intellectual growth. Academics are no longer the priority of the students or teachers at Harvard College. ~~~~~ > This prevalence of academic dishone…

Some random anecdotes: I went to Pomona College, which was a very different place than the one described in the Crimson article. While I'm sure cheating did take place, I was never witness to it, nor was there any cultural expectation that it occurred. Students tended to view cheating as just screwing yourself over in the long run (paying that much money to avoid get an education is a waste of time). Harvey Mudd Coll…

Part of this may be that collaboration is encouraged on almost all problem sets, and problems sets are designed with that in mind. Often, there's not much to actually "cheat" on, and this leads to a healthier attitude of learning together.

Re: The Fall of Academics at Harvard

#26

Post by drewda »

thinkcomp wrote: post #17

As a Harvard '04-'05 grad (two numbers meaning I left early) I think The Crimson, as per usual, misses the mark. It is indeed partly the part of the faculty for not engaging with students (e.g. teaching) enough. But even if some of the faculty had engaged more with us as students when I was there, I might have run for my life even faster than I already did, because some of the faculty just weren't that great. In fact…

I'll second the recommendation for William Deresiewicz's essays.

Here's his most relevant essay to this topic, which he's currently expanding into a book: http://theamericanscholar.org/the-disadvantages-of-an-elite-...

Re: The Fall of Academics at Harvard

#27

Post by lucidrains »

hkmurakami wrote: post #11

Disclosure: I graduated from Princeton in 2007 This article (which I skimmed) seems to use Princeton as a counterpoint to Harvard's supposed cheating culture and lax attitude towards academics. I have no idea whether students actually treat academics with more respect than their Crimson counterparts "on average". However , I can definitely say that the kind of collaboration/copying/cheating that is described for Harv…

Cornell wasn't really any better. I commonly came across cheating rings, especially among international students.

Re: The Fall of Academics at Harvard

#28

Post by Evbn »

thinkcomp wrote: post #17

As a Harvard '04-'05 grad (two numbers meaning I left early) I think The Crimson, as per usual, misses the mark. It is indeed partly the part of the faculty for not engaging with students (e.g. teaching) enough. But even if some of the faculty had engaged more with us as students when I was there, I might have run for my life even faster than I already did, because some of the faculty just weren't that great. In fact…

CS50 is way up because David Malan made it less 'nerdy'/ symbolic-computation more fun and applied.

Re: The Fall of Academics at Harvard

#29

Post by Evbn »

a_p wrote: post #15

I thought that the quality of writing in the article was very poor. As a side note, I also found it funny that many are worried that the "prestige" of Harvard is besmirched, because the original meaning (now obsolete) of prestige was An illusion; a conjuring trick; a deception, an imposture. EDIT: Even the title of the article is unintentionally funny. Because academics may also be the plural of academic (better desc…

Ironically (note: probably wrong diction), the worse the article is, the better it proves its point, as it is a student publication.

Re: The Fall of Academics at Harvard

#30

Post by Evbn »

jvrossb wrote: post #6

Is it possible to craft a course that assumed that students would collaborate/copy from each other and the internet while completing any take home assignment (so homework and projects but not in-class tests), allow for it explicitly, and still teach as much as the existing courses would have if students didn't collaborate/copy?

Teach? Easy. Grade? No. And that's what the problem: too much focus on grades, which are nearly meaningless.
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