Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would put my money that Dalvik etc is not inherently safer, it's just a matter of the JVM holes being fairly executable-specific attacks, and nobody bothering to target the off-brand JVMs.
I'm with you on the first part -- certainly there's nothing inherently different between the interpreter security models of the JVM and Dalvik. But if you're counting by deployed units, the JVM is now the "off brand". Dalvik owns that market. Certainly it's no less an attractive target -- perhaps more so as mobile devices are now a bigger part of the consumer market.
New Java 0-Day Vulnerability Being Exploited in the Wild
51–60 of 80 posts
Re: New Java 0-Day Vulnerability Being Exploited in the Wild
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
It makes no difference how prevalent they are in common web apps, the problem is that the Java plugin is still installed and active for a large number of users. This is not the attack sequence: * site has pre-existing Java * site gets compromised somehow * site now infects users This is how it usually plays out: * site gets compromised somehow * exploit includes a 0-day Java attack * site now infects users Literally…
Yes - also even a user who only wants to use client side Java outside of the browsers may be in trouble because of the automatically installed browser plugins that are part of the Java installation process. It's incredible how far and fast client side Java has fallen because of Oracle's tepid response to security concerns. I've developed many internal apps for client-side Java and supported them for over a decade. I…
I'm actually working on a desktop app used by hundreds of people (and installed by thousands) and my entire business model is being an ISV: trying to sell that Java app to people.
The less Java installed, the harder my life becomes ; (
Re: New Java 0-Day Vulnerability Being Exploited in the Wild
#53Has anyone from Sun/Oracle commented on this yet? Are certain parts of the code being exploited? Have they done anything to secure the VM? Is it all just spaghetti code at this point?
Anyone from Oracle who commented publicly on this would most assuredly be promptly fired and sued. These Java exploits are all pretty low hanging fruit. CVE-2013-0431 basically boiled down to calling "System.setSecurityManager(null)". We haven't even hit the advanced stuff yet.
Re: New Java 0-Day Vulnerability Being Exploited in the Wild
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not really? And the security plugin from my bank?
"Java security plugin from my bank" - irony is strong with that one.
Honestly the retards who decided that a Java applet was a wise decision for a bank should be shot before their genes are passed to a new generation :-/
Re: New Java 0-Day Vulnerability Being Exploited in the Wild
#55Re: New Java 0-Day Vulnerability Being Exploited in the Wild
#56For the devs on Linux who actually need Java ( e.g. Java or Clojure or Scala devs etc.), then there's an easy way out. Do NOT install Java from your distro. Do NOT install Java by giving the root password (or by directly using the root account): no rpm , no deb . Fetch, from a regular user account, the Java .tar.gz and install Java in your dev user account. And then install your browser in another user account . This…
This advice is fundamentally confused about how computer security works: the issue is not how the code is installed, it's whether an attacker can get your browser / email client to execute it. If the code runs as you, it has all the access it needs even if the files are owned by root.
> Fetch, from a regular user account, the Java .tar.gz and install Java in your dev user account.
So I don't get updates from the very responsive Ubuntu / Debian groups and instead rely on obsessively checking the news? That seems a LOT worse than simply disabling the Java browser plugin.
Re: New Java 0-Day Vulnerability Being Exploited in the Wild
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Java security plugin from my bank" - irony is strong with that one.
I'm SCJP since the last century and my life has been developing Java since a lloonngg time (and now Clojure, but targetting the JVM). Honestly the retards who decided that a Java applet was a wise decision for a bank should be shot before their genes are passed to a new generation :-/
There are lots of these wise decisions in IT here.
Re: New Java 0-Day Vulnerability Being Exploited in the Wild
#58It's not only the exploits, the fact that they are so frequent also means users got to update both Java and Flash almost every single day, which is a terrible user experience.
Re: New Java 0-Day Vulnerability Being Exploited in the Wild
#59Correction, new Oracle Java Virtual Machine exploit.
To be honest they inherited all these applets (and applets-only) security exploits from Sun. Sun are the ones to blame here. Actually the ones to blame are the uber f^^^tards who thought that Java applets was a technology worth anything. One should go back in time and read Usenet's comp.lang.java.programmer from back in the early Java days. There were two camps: the retards who thought applets were a good idea and go…
Since you were there you no doubt experienced the amazingly slow progress of support in HTML as it got pushed out to the #1 source of browsers (AOL) on a very slow timeline. The period between 1993 (can't use tables in your web pages because no one except XMosaic users have them) to early 1995 where "most" but certainly not a preponderance of web browsers supported them.
Some level of programability between client and server was essential. Had the 'render only' view prevailed you wouldn't have Javascript either. But it didn't prevail.
That said, security has always had a sort of anti-thetical relationship with 'features.' Its easy to sell features and its hard to sell security. I had built the basics for a nice capabilities based security model for Java early on (even patented it with the NSA's approval), which created a durable way giving only specific capabilities to an applet in a way that made other capabilities not only not accessible but not even present in the running system.
It was a bit more complex than the way class loading had traditionally been envisioned, it really crushed my motivation when another engineer on the Java project deleted it out of the source tree because he couldn't understand it.
The point I make is that these things evolve, and the story is never as simple as it looked like once you've gotten to the end of it. Should I have pushed harder on conceptual security even though it was hurting my career? Probably. Would it change where we are today? Hard to say.
[1] http://www.greatcircle.com/firewalls/mhonarc/firewalls.19950...
Re: New Java 0-Day Vulnerability Being Exploited in the Wild
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
It has nothing to do with Oracle's response -- the Java sandbox is simply broken, and has been known to be broken for at least the last 5 years. There's no fixing it, the approach is fundamentally flawed and fundamental to Java. This doesn't mean that Java for client-side applications is broken, as long as you don't rely on web based distribution and browser sandboxing.
Can you elaborate on "the approach is fundamentally flawed"? Don't we rely on a similar sort of sandboxing for Javascript in the browser?