Could the ancient Romans have built a digital computer? • Hacker News Board

Re: Could the ancient Romans have built a digital computer?

#41

Post by jacques_chester » Fri, Mar 01, 2013, 7:32 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #22

jacques_chester wrote: post #13

I'm going to do my usual OT hijacking and mention the upcoming novel of a friend. Her premise was: how would an industrialised, polytheistic society cope with monotheistic terrorism? It's an alternate history; the point of departure being that Archimedes of Syracuse was captured, taken to Rome and then funded (because the Romans were nothing if not practical). In her setting, the Romans are well into an industrial re…

"how would an industrialised, polytheistic society cope with monotheistic terrorism?" Add to this a side plot about creating sentient machines and you basically summed up the storyline of Caprica, Battlestar Galactica's prequel.

That may be the case (I never watched BSG), but I'm not sure if that precludes her from writing a story in what is ultimately a very different setting.

I'd also note that sometimes plots occur more than once in literature and entertainment by mere chance. Shocking, I know!

Edit: having looked up the Caprica plot on Wikipedia, really, they have nothing in common.

Re: Could the ancient Romans have built a digital computer?

#42

Post by yareally » Fri, Mar 01, 2013, 7:33 AM UTC

jacques_chester wrote: post #34

yareally wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that would have helped that much really. The Eastern Empire had been propping up the West for years with trade and money. By splitting off, the East was able to keep all that funding for itself. However, internal/external struggles, the Forth Crusade[1] and political intrigue ended up being the downfalls. I do think there is some "what if?" factor in all that. Such as what if the unified empire had not w…

One thing that's a bit confusing about "The Roman Empire" is that it bifurcates into the Western and Eastern empires, which were two wildly different polities with a shared name. If you thought the gcc/egcs fork was a big deal ...

Yeah, very true. The Germanic Tribes were probably as much, if not more Roman by the 6th Century than the Eastern Empire (Byzantines) were. From my understanding, the Germanic tribes did not exactly want to destroy the empire, they just wanted to be a part of the Roman Empire and share in its protection--to be Roman and share in their luxuries and technology. However, the Romans were too distrusting of them and treated them as second or third class citizens and isolating them on worthless lands far away from the core empire[1]. It was also business as usual for the Romans and how they treated many of the civilizations they saw as inferior--sucker them out of whatever you can and assume they're too dumb to know. They even traded the Goths dog meat in return for their children[1]. However, the Germans were smarter than the Romans gave them credit for and realized what was going on. When the Germanic tribes saw how weak the Romans were and after years of mistreatment, they decided they had enough.

Byzantines with a more Greek Culture (and spoken language) and different religious practices in some ways, despite being part of the same Catholic Church. I'd imagine that many in the West by the time of Justinian viewed them as invaders as much as any of the other groups.

Mistrust of foreign cultures still plagues us today in most countries throughout the world. It's too bad we do not learn from the mistakes of the past, such as those of the Romans and Gothic tribes. Isolating your fellow man because he speaks a different language or has a different culture/religion ends up making a country less safe instead of more safe.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_War_(376-382)#Outbreak

Re: Could the ancient Romans have built a digital computer?

#43

Post by meaty » Fri, Mar 01, 2013, 7:34 AM UTC

jeremyswank wrote: post #23

duaneb wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nulla/nihil.

philosophical (or philological question): is having a word for 'nothing' the same as having a number 'zero'? my answer would be no. when zero entered western civilization from the east, my understanding is that it triggered profound changes. yet indo-european languages have probably pretty much always had a word for 'nothing'.

Yes I think you are correct.

Nil/null/nothing is different to zero. The former is the lack of anything and the latter is an integer with no magnitude. This is something I'm always having to hammer into our developers' heads over and over again.

Re: Could the ancient Romans have built a digital computer?

#44

Post by coldtea » Fri, Mar 01, 2013, 7:39 AM UTC

>They even began dabbling in technology vastly ahead of their time. Hero of Alexandria drew up plans for a rudimentary steam engine in his Spiritalia seu Pneumatica.

Sorry, but Hero of Alexandria was a Greek. Not a Roman.

The Antikythera mechanism, mentioned casually in the article was Greek too.

Re: Could the ancient Romans have built a digital computer?

#45

Post by hect0r » Fri, Mar 01, 2013, 7:40 AM UTC

vineel wrote: post #17

jacques_chester wrote: post #13

I'm going to do my usual OT hijacking and mention the upcoming novel of a friend. Her premise was: how would an industrialised, polytheistic society cope with monotheistic terrorism? It's an alternate history; the point of departure being that Archimedes of Syracuse was captured, taken to Rome and then funded (because the Romans were nothing if not practical). In her setting, the Romans are well into an industrial re…

Sort of reminds me of India (the polytheistic "industrialized" society).

Many Christian societies are also polytheistic. The trinity is nothing if not an expression of polytheism.

Re: Could the ancient Romans have built a digital computer?

#46

Post by imrehg » Fri, Mar 01, 2013, 7:42 AM UTC

buro9 wrote: post #32

> I don’t think the Romans could have built the analytical engine or other purely mechanical computer because of the tolerances required. I don’t know much about their manufacturing abilities, but I know they didn’t do a lot of it and imported most things. But yet the greeks produced machines of incredible precision and function circa 150 to 100 BC. http://www.antikythera-mechanism.gr/ And whether they imported them…

If only one would read the actual article...

> It’s hard to know how precise manufacturing techniques were back then, but one of the best clues we have is the Antikythera mechanism. It uses hand cut gears that are surprisingly precise, but still probably not good enough for a mechanical computer. Small inaccuracies in the gear trains would add up, and this is evident in the Antikythera mechanism. It would be even more pronounced in a room sized contraption and would almost certainly prevent any useful calculations from being performed.

Re: Could the ancient Romans have built a digital computer?

#47

Post by Someone » Fri, Mar 01, 2013, 7:44 AM UTC

This description does not discuss reliability. IIRC, these cat's whisker diodes need frequent readjustment. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_radio#Crystal_detector agrees with that)

Using a single one to build a primitive radio receiver is easily doable, but combining a couple of thousands of them to get a 4004? I doubt one could ever get that to run for a second.

So, they would have to step up to better diodes. Of course, one can speculate that they could have done that, and they could. In the end, it is all down to the observation that flattery (aka imitation) is way easier than invention.

Re: Could the ancient Romans have built a digital computer?

#48

Post by ricardobeat » Fri, Mar 01, 2013, 7:45 AM UTC

I've always wondered about this. What are the chances electronic devices have been built in the past and for some reason there are no remains, we just can't tell them apart because we have no idea what to look for, or the materials they were made of have completely disintegrated by now?

Re: Could the ancient Romans have built a digital computer?

#49

Post by jacques_chester » Fri, Mar 01, 2013, 7:45 AM UTC

hect0r wrote: post #45

vineel wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sort of reminds me of India (the polytheistic "industrialized" society).

Many Christian societies are also polytheistic. The trinity is nothing if not an expression of polytheism.

A lot of the Roman impatience with early Christians was due to their energetic ... disagreements ... about your statement that "the trinity is nothing if not an expression of polytheism".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_controversy

Re: Could the ancient Romans have built a digital computer?

#50

Post by jacques_chester » Fri, Mar 01, 2013, 7:49 AM UTC

aviraldg wrote: post #38

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that what Battestar Galactica and especially Caprica detail? Not that they're a research or high-brow look at that question, but all the same.

Now that you mention it, it matches up exactly with Caprica's plotline!

I decided to look it up on Wikipedia. As best as I can make out they have basically nothing in common except the polytheist/monotheist division between characters.