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Why Everyone Should Not Learn To Code

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Re: Why Everyone Should Not Learn To Code

#51

Post by tbeseda »

dinkumthinkum wrote: post #48
dietrichepp wrote: post #21

> We need passionate people who are creative and want to learn to DESIGN software in addition to coding. We also need good workers who can scrape together the code to pipe data from one application to another. We need sociologists and detectives who can construct SQL queries. We need scientists and economists who can cobble something together in R. We need physicists and engineers who know their way around MATLAB or…

Do we really need >artists who can do a little bit of JavaScript when they need to? In some ways that statement is tautological, so I guess, fine (we need things that we need, got it). But I don't think this really an interesting statement; maybe it's a little provocative but not realistic. How about we have renaissance style artists that also do mechanical engineering? That's great but now you're argument is not abo…

I'm afraid your comment needs some editing before I can fully understand your intention. But I can posit this:

What if that cab driver, as a result of knowing a small amount of coding, could optimize his time, his routes, his fuel efficiency, his tire wear, or Hell even eliminate the need for a cab service altogether?

Luckily, you're right, someone else will figure it out for him.

Re: Why Everyone Should Not Learn To Code

#52

Post by dinkumthinkum »

danilocampos wrote: post #34

Software development is a lifestyle choice like literacy is a lifestyle choice. If you don't know how to read, you're still totally fine. You just can't: - Communicate your thoughts - Learn new things - Understand warnings about dangerous conditions - Make more than a certain amount of money per year - Participate meaningfully in your government etc. As computers further saturate our existence, the divide between tho…

I could say the same thing about electrical engineering but I don't think you would find that as interesting in argument; no one has ever really seriously suggested, that has gotten as much press as "code fever" as regarding everyone needing to learn about energy and electricity.

I submit those technologies pervade our culture much more than programming, as well programming real computers that poeple use is only possible because of the former. Why's programming so special in this sense? Because people can whip together "yet another blog in RoR" YouTube videos but maybe electromagnetism not so easy? I dunno.

In a funny way, it's like software "engineers" are putting their hands up and saying "I give up. We don't know how to make software or user interfaces for users to use in sensible way so we give up, now we think all our users need to learn to program for us." It's kind of cute. :)

If you think a lot of people are pretty decent functional programmers in Excel spreadsheets ... I wonder what you're definition of "a lot" is, I don't think that's really true.

Given the state of pre-college education, I sort of feel like we're just saying "math is hard, let's see if we can at least teach these kids dynamic programming languages so they can at least make a simple blog engine instead." It's like we're going to throw more stuff into a system that needs to be reworked, anyway. The other side of it is like ... it's not as if kids are not learning to program as it is. That's what is strange to me; most good/great programmers I know started as kids with various socio-economic backgrounds.

Re: Why Everyone Should Not Learn To Code

#53

Post by dinkumthinkum »

tbeseda wrote: post #51
dinkumthinkum wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we really need >artists who can do a little bit of JavaScript when they need to? In some ways that statement is tautological, so I guess, fine (we need things that we need, got it). But I don't think this really an interesting statement; maybe it's a little provocative but not realistic. How about we have renaissance style artists that also do mechanical engineering? That's great but now you're argument is not abo…

I'm afraid your comment needs some editing before I can fully understand your intention. But I can posit this: What if that cab driver, as a result of knowing a small amount of coding, could optimize his time, his routes, his fuel efficiency, his tire wear, or Hell even eliminate the need for a cab service altogether? Luckily, you're right, someone else will figure it out for him.

Well, I edited it but I think it's pretty clear anyway. You're posit does really answer the issue.

So you're solution is there is that the cab driver should be an Einstein or something, great but that's just silly. You're basically saying as I said before, that the best case scenario is if everyone was some great intellectual. No one disputes that, it's not controversial. But it's not interesting as something that could be made to happen in reality. As well, why is programming so special in this sense?

For this cab driver, knowing a little bit of Javascript to be able make SPA blog engine is not enough to do route optimization, fuel efficiency and all this other stuff. You're talking about a renaissance cabbie that knows operations research, physics, and queuing theory and so on.

It's not really serious how programming is the special snowflake in this sense. If the cab driver had taken the time to learn physics, and operations research in high school or whatever is being posited for programming, then he would be able to make this super efficient cab system or probably not have to be a cab driver. Adding "programming" into the mix of education does not fundamentally change anything about society.

Re: Why Everyone Should Not Learn To Code

#54

Post by dinkumthinkum »

theonewolf wrote: post #31

So to me personally, the movement’s purpose is _not_ to make software engineers, or true coders, or even mediocre programmers, but rather to make Computer Science a top-level subject in school systems alongside Biology, Physics, Calculus, etc. Just because you took high school Biology or Physics did not make you into a Biologist or a Physicist. It merely introduced you to the most distilled and complete parts of thos…

Well, of course, I mean that's great. How are we doing at educating at educating the masses in biology, mathematics, physics, etc? Not very good right? So now, we're going to add more stuff. Why don't we add queuing theory, that's important right? To me the movement is not clear; it's not as if you can't learn programming school as it is now. I love programming but I just don't understand what the goals are of the "code fever" movement are or even when I do I think it is naive, at best.

Even that sort of crazy video with Zuckerberg and Gates literally made it out to be that programming is easy and you don't have to be smart and then implied that learning this stuff that is easy and doesn't require smarts will land you a job at this places where you can skateboard in the office and futons and so forth when they are the ones recruiting masters and phd students and asking people how to move Mt. Fuji (ok ok I know that one is gone, just throwing it out there. :) )

Re: Why Everyone Should Not Learn To Code

#55

Post by dinkumthinkum »

elliottcarlson wrote: post #23

I won't become a plumber, but I will learn the basics of switching out the flush valve when my current one is ever so slightly leaking gallons and gallons of water. Anything bigger and I'll call a plumber. I also won't become an electrician, but I know how to shut the breakers off so I can replace a light fixture on my own as well. There is a benefit in having some knowledge not only because it can help you in your d…

I think there's a clear argument for computer literacy. That's a given. But programming, I think that is a very separate issue. The code fever movement is just a bit out there. It's one thing to say it's good to learn to code. It's another thing to say "everyone needs to code" or "we should make a curriculum about programming because we use software."

Re: Why Everyone Should Not Learn To Code

#56

Post by dinkumthinkum »

christiangenco wrote: post #44
viveutvivas wrote: post #5

Let's start with everyone learning some math, first. Particularly probability & statistics.

Learn math through coding. See an immediate practical use for all those trig functions while coding your fun game. ¿Porque no los dos?

But we're being a little silly here right. How about everyone learning basic algebera before we get to trig for your fun game. Believe, coding a game sounds fun to us programmers, it might sound fun in theory to others, but it is not fun in reality to others.

Re: Why Everyone Should Not Learn To Code

#60

Post by kolinko »

dinkumthinkum wrote: post #50
Turing_Machine wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, all that, plus business people who can write and edit simple spreadsheet macros and people to whom the operation of the programmable thermostat in their house is not a total mystery. Not many people have the talent to become professional photographers, chefs, or musicians. That doesn't mean they shouldn't learn how take non-crappy family pictures, cook an edible meal, or enjoy singing songs with friends.

But why does programming change the world in that sense? We've had math education for a long time now, you could debate about the quality of it but I'll call you a liar if you couldn't make the debates about programming education, yet we have widespread misunderstandings about many quantitative things, we have had a lot of historical education, yet many people do know basic things in history. I just don't think these…

We do have misunderstanding about quantitative things, and people don't know some basic things about history, but it would be even worse without education.
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