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Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

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Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the issue is: to buy a Lenovo machine is to buy Windows. There is no other option but to have to pay for Windows with your machine. One can't just buy a laptop with nothing on it. This can be seen as unfair to the customer in many countries and therefore, illegal.

Can I buy a Toyota car without the Michelin tires they bundle and get a discount? I want to install my custom tires and have no need for the tires they bundle.

Of course you can. You just haggle with the dealer.

Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#82
post #68

Linus posted a NSFW rant about it a few days ago. The story mysteriously went off the HN front page and subsequent submissions of the story went [dead]. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5279531 Rankings graph showing a deep dive. http://hnrankings.info/5279531/ Part of Linus' email: >Guys, this is not a dick-sucking contest. If you want to parse PE binaries, go right ahead. >If Red Hat wants to deep-throat Microso…

HN dislikes anything that shows that real people have real emotions. Humour, anger and whatnot have no place here.

I think it is just a vocal minority of people who take offense to words like fuck. Most people don't care.

Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#83
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN dislikes anything that shows that real people have real emotions. Humour, anger and whatnot have no place here.

I think it is just a vocal minority of people who take offense to words like fuck. Most people don't care.

Profanity is hardly the only thing. HN, or a subset of it's users, basically expect everyone to act like humourless, passionless robots.

Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#84
Having read through the entire thread instead of just the expletives, in my opinion it's a rare case of Linux and Greg being totally wrongheaded on the issue.

The problem crops up because redhat submitted a pull request to enhance the existing in kernel live inclusion of additional trusted x.509 certificates. Note that this is 100% upstream and live. The pull was to add the ability to extract these x.509 certificates from UEFI PE binaries, as this is the only format they are available in from the only CA UEFI secure boot computers are guaranteed to trust - Microsoft's CA.

Linus decided he didn't like it because he didn't like the idea of extracting a certificate instead of having it alone. Understandable, probably, except that leaves you in a situation where a secure kernel that was executed due to a microsoft CA chain of trust now can't make use of that CA's code signing services to decide if it wants to run a module solely because linus doesn't approve of parsing the file format that contains the key.

The biggest place this comes up is binary only graphics drivers from ati and nvidia - without changes os's like fedora are going to refuse to run them because they're unsigned, which is unfortunate considering how uneven some of the open source 3d drivers are and the heavy reliance on 3d in all modern desktops environments.

Meanwhile microsoft is perfectly willing to sign these drivers and has an existing substantial CA operation. Both ati and nvidia submit their windows drivers for signing to this CA all the time, so it'd be almost no extra effort for them to get their linux shims signed as well.

But because linus thinks parsing a PE for a signed module key is asinine, he goes on to provide a series of rather off the cuff alternatives:

a) Every distro should parse the PEs and add every key of every 3rd part module they wish to allow to run and embed these in their signed kernels, issuing a new kernel every time a driver revs.

b) ok, maybe that's not ideal. how about every distro that wants to allow binary drivers to run builds their own CA infrastructure, verification and qualification team and revocation infrastructure. So that's a team at cannonical, redhat, novell, mint, oracle, ibm, etc. etc.

c) ok, maybe full ca teams are a bit burdensome. How about all you distro guys just blind sign the binary drivers with your own signing key - worrying that MS might revoke your key because you blind signed an exploit is pointless fearmongering.

d) ok, you're right this is harder than i thought. let's just collectively decide that users with secure boot enabled will be prevented from running any module not shipped by the os vendor. Aka fuck off unless you're using intel video.

e) alright, maybe that's a little severe. Instead let's just punt entirely - even though we're going through the trouble of a chain of trust from firmware to boot loader to kernel to most modules, let's allow any unsigned binary module to be loaded by default.

f) ok, i guess that kind of defeats the purpose. None of this is good security anyway - what we should be requiring is any user that wants to use secure boot should generate their own signing keys, add them to the firmware and then parse and sign everything they trust, repeating the process every time they update while of course protecting the signing key from attackers.

I think that about covers it. Linus is really smart, but sometimes he makes a snap decision and then will perform whatever mental gymnastics are necessary to defend it to the death. And most of his inner circle will publicly go along with it because of the real chance he'll pay you back by randomly torpedoing something of yours sometime in the future.

Linux's signed code infrastructure is currently the worst in the industry and Matthew and Redhat have provided the bulk of the improvements that everyone is using. It's going to provide real user benefit, even if the users are paralyzed by FUD. Getting in the way of the process or trying to punt it out of mainline and onto everyone who ships a distro isn't going to help anyone.

Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#85
Physical access is god access. Admin/root is god access.

Guard them both with your life.

I fail to see how handing over control of your boot to some 3rd party who clearly doesn't have the same interests that you do is anything but a horrible idea.

Just physically secure your boxes(or VDI them) and use permissions and ACLs to do what they were designed to do[control and delegate authority].

A good first step for Microsoft, if it cares so much about security, is to stop making its users automagically admin for fogging a mirror, during new PC setup.

Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#86
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google ships Chromebooks with secure boot enabled too. Does it get a free pass because it's not a monopoly?

Not sure why you seem to assume I give Google a free pass. Hope they get sued to high hell, but in the meanwhile I'm just not buying them as a computer that's useless outside of Google's cloud is also outside of my interests.

To be fair, they also clearly publish how to enable "Developer mode" which lets you do more or less whatever you want for each new model of Chromebook.

Admittedly, it's harder for some than others: http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-information-fo...

Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#87
post #84

Having read through the entire thread instead of just the expletives, in my opinion it's a rare case of Linux and Greg being totally wrongheaded on the issue. The problem crops up because redhat submitted a pull request to enhance the existing in kernel live inclusion of additional trusted x.509 certificates. Note that this is 100% upstream and live. The pull was to add the ability to extract these x.509 certificates…

Err, why is this being downvoted? If anything, this should be pinned as the top comment.

Anyway, thanks for an excellent and detailed technical take on the situation as opposed to the knee jerk bashing in many of the other posts.

There's also some excellent detail in the below article without the histrionics.

http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/23400.html

Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#88
I'm glad Linus Torvalds is smarter than your average developer. Truly a solid chap.

If he were lacking these kinds of personality traits, and shrank like a mouse every time there happened to be an opportunity to compromise the integrity of his project, Linux would have died long, long ago.

Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#89
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the problem is when I want to generate my own key and use that as the only authority. the system doesn't support that model. It does. You can add your own key and even remove Microsoft's if so wish. The facts are getting lost in this FUDstorm.

Well it wouldn't have been a fud storm if Microsoft hadn't insistet on it being turned on by default. But if I were to remove a MS key, am I right in assuming that that would prevent anybody from running windows on that machine (at least without installing the key or turning it of)?

If it's turned off by default, it might as well be useless to protect the hundreds of millions of non-technical users who are more prone to get malware.

>But if I were to remove a MS key, am I right in assuming that that would prevent anybody from running windows on that machine (at least without installing the key or turning it of)?

Windows 8 boots fine without Secure Boot enabled or even supported.

However, if you remove Microsoft's key but leave Secure Boot enabled, you're indicating that you don't trust Microsoft's code, in which case Windows will be prevented from booting on that machine.

What is the value or the use case in removing Microsoft's key, leaving secure boot on and then trying to boot Windows on that machine?

Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#90
post #84

Having read through the entire thread instead of just the expletives, in my opinion it's a rare case of Linux and Greg being totally wrongheaded on the issue. The problem crops up because redhat submitted a pull request to enhance the existing in kernel live inclusion of additional trusted x.509 certificates. Note that this is 100% upstream and live. The pull was to add the ability to extract these x.509 certificates…

Wow, I think I learned more about Linux + UEFI from this comment than anything else so far. Thanks!
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