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Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

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Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#11

The thing about secure boot is that it is a GOOD idea done very badly indeed. What was needed was for a trusted neutral party(or two) to be the owner of the root key, and for that organisation to hand out child keys (e.g. Microsoft, Open Source Initiative, Apple, etc) who could in turn generate child keys (all of which could be revoked). Essentially we need the "internet model" of key exchanges for this too. I cannot…

The real use for secure boot is within a single company/organization where you want to control exactly what runs on the computers you own. That's an argument for secure boot to be switched off by default, and for the companies that want it to manage their own keys.

Although Microsoft will now point at me and say "but, but we need to prevent boot sector viruses!" it's telling that no other operating system except Windows commonly suffers from this problem.

Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#12
post #7

I always thought that the secure boot is a very, very, very bad idea. In fact the whole UEFI in general I think it is a clusterfuck of mishmashed random ideas, some good, many bad. What I intend to do personally, is attempt to don't use secure boot. And this all might explain the e-mail I got from Lenovo 10 minutes ago... I asked them for a non-Windows machine. They replied saying that they from now on only manufactu…

I think the Germans were pretty concerned about this, too. I could definitely see a lawsuit against them there, considering how "weird" (but usually right) Germany is when it comes to things like these.

Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#13
post #7

I always thought that the secure boot is a very, very, very bad idea. In fact the whole UEFI in general I think it is a clusterfuck of mishmashed random ideas, some good, many bad. What I intend to do personally, is attempt to don't use secure boot. And this all might explain the e-mail I got from Lenovo 10 minutes ago... I asked them for a non-Windows machine. They replied saying that they from now on only manufactu…

What exactly is illegal? Selling a machine with OS or not selling it without one?

And as for the "this explains then why ThinkPads must come with Windows" - no. It doesn't explain it. Secure boot has to be present on Windows certified machine, not the other way around. Lenovo can sell whatever they want (but apparently it's beneficial for them economically to only sell Windows machines).

Also, certified machine has to have secure boot disable-able. So it's not about you not being able to use the machine with Linux, it's about not being able to use Secure Boot with Linux.

Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#14
post #7

I always thought that the secure boot is a very, very, very bad idea. In fact the whole UEFI in general I think it is a clusterfuck of mishmashed random ideas, some good, many bad. What I intend to do personally, is attempt to don't use secure boot. And this all might explain the e-mail I got from Lenovo 10 minutes ago... I asked them for a non-Windows machine. They replied saying that they from now on only manufactu…

I just bought a UEFI laptop in Vietnam that was Lenovo brand, it came unlicensed with windows, but fully supports secure boot in to it.

Are you sure this isn't just a regional sales thing, not selling a Windows Free version in that teritory?

Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#15

The thing about secure boot is that it is a GOOD idea done very badly indeed. What was needed was for a trusted neutral party(or two) to be the owner of the root key, and for that organisation to hand out child keys (e.g. Microsoft, Open Source Initiative, Apple, etc) who could in turn generate child keys (all of which could be revoked). Essentially we need the "internet model" of key exchanges for this too. I cannot…

I don't know if there's really a good way to implement it.

No matter how you do it, it seems to have the same problems as SSL CAs and certificates (that is, some CAs are corrupt/negligent/compromised).

And in your proposal, what do you do if the root key ever gets compromised?

Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#16
post #13
post #7

I always thought that the secure boot is a very, very, very bad idea. In fact the whole UEFI in general I think it is a clusterfuck of mishmashed random ideas, some good, many bad. What I intend to do personally, is attempt to don't use secure boot. And this all might explain the e-mail I got from Lenovo 10 minutes ago... I asked them for a non-Windows machine. They replied saying that they from now on only manufactu…

What exactly is illegal? Selling a machine with OS or not selling it without one? And as for the "this explains then why ThinkPads must come with Windows" - no. It doesn't explain it. Secure boot has to be present on Windows certified machine, not the other way around. Lenovo can sell whatever they want (but apparently it's beneficial for them economically to only sell Windows machines). Also, certified machine has t…

How about multi-boot? From my understanding that isn't going to be possible anymore.

Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#17

The thing about secure boot is that it is a GOOD idea done very badly indeed. What was needed was for a trusted neutral party(or two) to be the owner of the root key, and for that organisation to hand out child keys (e.g. Microsoft, Open Source Initiative, Apple, etc) who could in turn generate child keys (all of which could be revoked). Essentially we need the "internet model" of key exchanges for this too. I cannot…

The nice thing about SecureBoot is that there is no root key—you can have whatever keys you like installed on your system, you don't have to get permission from a central authority. If you want code signed with your key to run out of the box on random PCs, you just have to convince each PC manufacturer to include your key in the hardware key-store of the systems they ship, a purely independent transaction. It's just…

Yes, this is the issue I see in all this.

None of the linux vendors banded together to create a NPO which would simply manage keys, ensure it was avialable to all manafacturers. Maybe even provide a logo/stamp/certification/brand so people can instantly see it's supported.

The fact that ONLY Microsoft have done this isn't really the fault of Microsoft. The fact that devs can't agree on the most elegant way of providing the chain of trust, in a manner which plays nicely is again, not Microsofts fault.

Yet Microsoft is being flamed for this.... Why exactly is this their fault?

Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#18

The thing about secure boot is that it is a GOOD idea done very badly indeed. What was needed was for a trusted neutral party(or two) to be the owner of the root key, and for that organisation to hand out child keys (e.g. Microsoft, Open Source Initiative, Apple, etc) who could in turn generate child keys (all of which could be revoked). Essentially we need the "internet model" of key exchanges for this too. I cannot…

"trusted neutral party"

Such as?

Should Microsoft trust WC3?

Or Foxconn trust the United Nations?

Every organization requires funding. How would this party receive it?

Because the world is unfortunately short of philosopher kings, we are probably better served by the marketplace when it comes to hardware manufacture.

Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#19
post #13
post #7

I always thought that the secure boot is a very, very, very bad idea. In fact the whole UEFI in general I think it is a clusterfuck of mishmashed random ideas, some good, many bad. What I intend to do personally, is attempt to don't use secure boot. And this all might explain the e-mail I got from Lenovo 10 minutes ago... I asked them for a non-Windows machine. They replied saying that they from now on only manufactu…

What exactly is illegal? Selling a machine with OS or not selling it without one? And as for the "this explains then why ThinkPads must come with Windows" - no. It doesn't explain it. Secure boot has to be present on Windows certified machine, not the other way around. Lenovo can sell whatever they want (but apparently it's beneficial for them economically to only sell Windows machines). Also, certified machine has t…

Having firmware locked to only work under a given OS. It's pretty much a textbook definition of anticompetitive practice.

Re: Torvalds clarifies Linux's Windows 8 Secure Boot position

#20
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is illegal? Selling a machine with OS or not selling it without one? And as for the "this explains then why ThinkPads must come with Windows" - no. It doesn't explain it. Secure boot has to be present on Windows certified machine, not the other way around. Lenovo can sell whatever they want (but apparently it's beneficial for them economically to only sell Windows machines). Also, certified machine has t…

How about multi-boot? From my understanding that isn't going to be possible anymore.

It is possible with disabled secure boot. Windows 8 doesn't need Secure Boot or even UEFI to work. It's only about the "Certified" sticker.

And theoretically, Grub (or something) can have the key signed.

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