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Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

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181–190 of 234 posts

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#181

Programming only does not help you think, there are several other disciplines that help you think. Philosophy/Logic/Sociology IMHO does it better. If industry needs more programmers, for economic growth, this does not mean kids should be brainwashed to learn to code. And even after learning to code, what do you do, an average programmers life goes just copy pasting stuff. Google/SO customize copy and paste. Thats wha…

everyone might not end up painting, but to extend the analogy, most schools have art classes.

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I humbly disagree. Lets focus on one point. Literacy facilitated efficient information exchange. Likewise programming facilitated efficient information exchange. But, not everybody needed to program the Internet for this advantage. I think you are confusing a personal advantage and societal advantage. Certainly, we need programers but I am uncertain if everybody needs to be a programmer. I work a full-time software j…

I think that what humanity gained in literacy when Gutenburg invented the printing press is akin to what humanity can gain in problem solving skills upon the invention of the microprocessor. An everyday problem solver is a more peaceful, more level headed, and more thoughtful person than someone who is not. Just like an everyday reader is someone who is more informed than someone who is illiterate. The best way to te…

I don't think the Gutenberg thing applies at all. I think we're getting carried away. You could make a argument about digital information and the Web as a way to disseminate information as a Gutenberg style invention but I don't think programming is.

I don't think programming and learning to code is the "everyday problem solver," "more peaceful" person. I think what you're talking about is the phenomena that intellectuals tend to be more circumspect, perhaps less violent whatever. We don't need programming for that. We have a whole history of knowledge and art in philosophy, literature, other sciences, logic, mathematics etc. I fail to see how programming is special in that sense?

The average person, say in the US, may be more likely to be able to read than in the past but they do not tend to be less "ignorant" of many societal issues, cultures, etc (because you bring up peace and harmony) even thought we have educational tools long standing to solve that problem, much better than programming.

Honestly, I dispute this outright. I've been programming a long time, met many programmers and computer scientists; it does not seem like the ability to produce CRUD correlates in any real sense to a person being less likely to join the Tea Party.

You're viewing programming as this great society benefiting solution to social ills or something that makes you a better person; large swaths of people would just view it as an engineering and say "fine, sure, programming skills make it easier for you to get a job, great" but not anything that substantially creates peace in the world -- that's too much I think.

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I humbly disagree. Lets focus on one point. Literacy facilitated efficient information exchange. Likewise programming facilitated efficient information exchange. But, not everybody needed to program the Internet for this advantage. I think you are confusing a personal advantage and societal advantage. Certainly, we need programers but I am uncertain if everybody needs to be a programmer. I work a full-time software j…

He's not saying everyone needs to be a programmer , but everyone needs to be able to program . The number of times in all my jobs where I've seen people working on problems that could be done orders of magnitude faster with a bit of coding knowledge, is beyond count. Reformat that document? How about a Regex? Analyse this data? Automatic graph generation and statistical methods. Keep records updated? Database with au…

Uh no. He's saying everyone needs to be a programmer.

> companies will benefit most from hiring great coders and teaching them how to be CEOs

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#185
post #66

The gap between CS majors and software jobs is misleading. You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. Still, if there's such a shortage of good programmers (and I agree that there probably is) then why aren't we playing this to our advantage? A senior engineer can't afford a house in the Bay Area or New York, and our status is low-- we still work for managers; we're a defeated tribe in this way. Most o…

> The gap between CS majors and software jobs is misleading. You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. Conversely, you don't need to be a decent programmer to get a CS degree. It's a shame that in the age of the internet and self-directed learning, degrees are so heavily weighted in the job market.

One thing about people that make this argument that I don't understand is do you all know about libraries? You know they've been around for a long time. I'll grant you search engines make some parts marginally easier but to get the fundamental knowledge, you don't have to have that. So why is the Internet the great panacea for this ... Or is it that autodidactism is not really that common but it's much easier to call casually watching a YouTube building a blog engine as learning?

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My identical-twin brother is a doctor, and I make far more than he does. The reason is that I don't call myself a programmer [1]. Instead, I've built-up enormous amounts of domain knowledge [2] in addition to my software engineering skills. As for the career prospects of anyone fresh out of law school, the legal profession suffered a massive meltdown in 2008 and hasn't recovered. [1] http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/…

Your two data points don't mean much because we're talking about macro trends and whether a 'shortage' actually exists. Specifically I'm asking someone to justify the assertion that there is a shortage of good programmers with some numbers, and I pointed out that job openings is essentially just market 'bids' and therefore not a very good metric since all markets have lots of 'bids' at well below market price. For so…

A lawyer from a top 14 school is literally top 1%. A top 1% programmer with 3 years work experience (law school = 3 years) easily clears 160k. Heck, a top 5% programmer can clear that after 3 years.

I would agree that on average lawyers make more, but that's because you're looking at a skewed distribution. It is not an apples to apples comparison. Law schools are selective and someone who doesn't get into any law school (or does get into law school but fails the bar) is probably forced to change careers. Anyone writing shitty code can call him/herself a programmer.

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#187
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Still, if there's such a shortage of good programmers (and I agree that there probably is) then why aren't we playing this to our advantage? A senior engineer can't afford a house in the Bay Area or New York, and our status is low-- we still work for managers; we're a defeated tribe in this way. Most of us don't have the autonomy to choose our tools or decide whether to use or replace old legacy code. Shouldn't our…

I think you're off the mark, because you're always "working for someone else". Details change, but ultimately there's no difference between "mak[ing] something that is useful" and working for others. Sometimes the terms are great, and sometimes they're awful. The implicit assumption is that "working for an established organization" must imply "working with miserably low levels of autonomy". I'm not sure that I agree.…

Using your logic, even the CEO of a company is working for someone (the Board of Directors, the shareholders, activist shareholders, etc.). Even the majority shareholder of a Fortune 500 company is working for someone else, using your logic.

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#188
post #33

Personally I think the world is drunk with "code fever". We are creatures of overreaction. Not too long ago it was "no one learn to code! it's all going to be outsourced to India!" Now, "I'm starting a non-profit to spread the gift of coding to children. Coding is our future". Give me a f-ing break.

I think this is a very sane response. It is cynical and perhaps a little harsh but it's just reality.

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> reading and writing code is basic literacy for the > information age No. Just like everyone being a car mechanic is not the basic literacy of the automotive age. "Everyone learns to code" is a pipe dream.

But everyone learning to drive is / was. Being a car driver is python coding. Being a car mechanic is probably on the order of writing a compiler. The analogies will always break down but really, in this day and age, an adult in the Western world who cannot drive is socially and econmoically disadvantaged. ( chooses not to is likely a different thing - for half of 20 years in London I had no car and biked / tubed eve…

You're analogy sort of fails little bit though. It's more like being able to use a computer and being able to browse the web is much more like being a driver in the automotive age than being a compiler writer is to a mechanic (the compiler writer seems to be more like the automotive engineer ...).

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "But everyone learning to drive is / was. Being a car driver is python coding. Being a car mechanic is probably on the order of writing a compiler." I think being a car driver is more equal to being a competent computer user not a python programmer.

Really? Driving a car is hard... lives depend on it, it requires judgement and constant attention to details. That we have mostly got it down to our sub-concious does not change that. "competant" computer users who do not code basically send email and write word docs. Thats the level of putting on a seat belt, or working out how to turn on the air-con. We can argue about the analoigy for a long time, but pretty much…

You're straining this analogy though. Using fine motor skills and hand eye coordination is different from understanding recursion and using to solve problems. Let's get serious everyone. :)

This is not to knock anyone but let's say all of us participating in this discussion are at or better than the level of coding we think the general public should be at. This coding ability still doesn't seem to make us have great, sound, logical arguments and all these other attributes that are being espoused.

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